An impossible ask . . . .

[Griz882]

This legitimately is on my mind constantly and causes lost sleep. It really is scary. Thanks for bringing it up so succinctly.

Nations, while almost impossible to destroy, are easy to weaken and that I think is what we are feeling. The United States isn’t going to cease to exist, but there might be limited bloodshed before reconciliation - still I have my doubts. I feel (as opposed to believe/think) that we will reach a point of peak social media and (maybe after some disturbing acts of violence) calm down. The problem with envisioning a “civil war” is that out issues today are not regional or geographic and quite frankly we don’t necessarily know who to fight. What we will see (this time I believe) is the eventual destruction of the two party system and with that a cooling of much of the anger flying about the system right now.

 

[Randy Daytona]

Nations, while almost impossible to destroy, are easy to weaken and that I think is what we are feeling. The United States isn’t going to cease to exist, but there might be limited bloodshed before reconciliation - still I have my doubts. I feel (as opposed to believe/think) that we will reach a point of peak social media and (maybe after some disturbing acts of violence) calm down. The problem with envisioning a “civil war” is that out issues today are not regional or geographic and quite frankly we don’t necessarily know who to fight. What we will see (this time I believe) is the eventual destruction of the two party system and with that a cooling of much of the anger flying about the system right now.

One of the most depressing books I have ever read (outside of Upton Sinclair’s “The Jungle”) was Omar El Akkad’s “American War” - if you haven’t read it, you might want to consider it.

AMERICAN WAR | Kirkus Reviews

A dystopian vision of a future United States undone by civil war and plague.

www.kirkusreviews.com

 

[Griz882]

One of the most depressing books I have ever read (outside of Upton Sinclair’s “The Jungle”) was Omar El Akkad’s “American War” - if you haven’t read it, you might want to consider it.

AMERICAN WAR | Kirkus Reviews

A dystopian vision of a future United States undone by civil war and plague.

www.kirkusreviews.com

View attachment 32546

Heard of it, but it falls for the same trap of thinking in regions (north vs south). We will face something far more complicated.

 

[HSMPBR]

"The cliché blurs the difference between truth and untruth. If it were not for clichés, there wouldn't be demagogues and public lies, and it wouldn't be so easy to play politics, starting with rhetoric and ending with genocide." — Karel Capek

Pulling a @ChuckMK23 and replying to myself, but my edit clock expired… The close of the linked article:

“Čapek's writing career coincided almost precisely with the birth and death of independent Czechoslovakia [you know, before Hitler]; Zamyatin's extended from the last days of the Romanovs to Stalin's Great Terror. As members of that brave and tragic inter-war tribe of intellectuals who rejected fascism, communism and imperialism alike, they witnessed the crushing defeat of the values that they lived by. Ultimately, the only thing that exceeded their imaginations was their moral courage. Their lives were not blighted by robots or spaceships but by people who had surrendered something of their humanity to unforgiving ideologies. As one of Čapek's characters says in The Absolute at Large, "You know, the bigger the things a man believes in, the more fiercely he despises those who don't. And yet the greatest of all beliefs would be to believe in people".

 

[MGoBrew11]

@Griz882 is correct we would face something much more complicated than a regional war.

The conflict that I think most closely resembles what the US would face in such a sad scenario would be the Spanish Civil War.

 

[picklesuit]

There won’t be a civil war, as historically viewed, between left and right in this country. There is a disparity in arms and capability, and one side hides behind state-sponsored violence in the form of legal enforcement of questionable edicts, while the other is more capable of individual action and violence, while holding a higher regard for the sanctity of individual life.

More importantly, what separates the two ideologically violent dichotomies is a majority of mostly ambivalent citizens in the middle who just want to be left the fuck alone, and are willing to trade a lot of freedoms and willpower to live a (mostly) peaceful existence, as long as they have their shows, McDonalds, and iPhones…

We are too lazy to fight for what we believe in, on either side, as a whole.

Pickle

 

[nodropinufaka]

There won’t be a civil war, as historically viewed, between left and right in this country. There is a disparity in arms and capability, and one side hides behind state-sponsored violence in the form of legal enforcement of questionable edicts, while the other is more capable of individual action and violence, while holding a higher regard for the sanctity of individual life.

More importantly, what separates the two ideologically violent dichotomies is a majority of mostly ambivalent citizens in the middle who just want to be left the fuck alone, and are willing to trade a lot of freedoms and willpower to live a (mostly) peaceful existence, as long as they have their shows, McDonalds, and iPhones…

We are too lazy to fight for what we believe in, on either side, as a whole.

Pickle

Interesting.

I wouldn’t equate firearm ownership as being capable or individual action or violence or equate that to disparity in arms.

If we have learned anything from the past wars- that means almost nothing

 

[MIDNJAC]

I think if both extremes stopped trying to impose their will on the other (and thus the masses), we'd be just fine. Both speak in blatantly obvious ideological inconsistencies. I think that is where you get the "middle", pickle, of which I would consider myself to be a part of. We recognize how illogical, emotional, irrational, hypocritical, and hysterical both ends of the spectrum sound at times. To your other point, I'd argue that both parties have very willingly accepted losses of liberties when it benefitted their objectives, especially in the last 20 years (PATRIOT Act, COVID, etc). I am of the belief that life requires us to concede some things for the benefit of others, that we might not necessarily want ourselves. Living with others who share different views doesn't have to be a constant battle.....much like a marriage doesn't have to be a constant debate over who is more right. That doesn't mean I intend to roll over on things that are truly important, but this attitude of "I'm 100% right and you are wrong and we are doing it my way and you can go get fucked if you don't like it" is tiring.....and of course once again, seems to know no political boundaries. Also there is a major leap between angrily posting a bunch of bullshit on Facebook about people you don't like, and actually taking aim at your neighbor and pulling the trigger because they are a [insert your choice political enemy]. That part is what I hope our civilized society is not, and never will, be ready for. If we aren't because of McDonalds or iPhones, that's fine by me.........though my belief is that the iPhone is what is pulling us closer to the brink.

 

[IKE]

The strife in the U.S. now reminds me of an essay I had to write in Strategy & Policy (JMPE class for the luckily uninitiated). The question was what makes better allies: common policy or a common enemy. I naively answered the former, but I think with another 10 years of life, I've realized everyone needs an "other" by which to define themselves or their group.

I'm admittedly a terrible historian, so excuse the simplicity of what's to come... We started by having the English as what we weren't, and that was just barely, then the Civil War, then we weren't Nazis, then not Commies, and until recently we've always been not heathens (atheists, etc.). As the melting pot aspect of the U.S. is starting to be felt more, we have both extremes refusing to accept it (one via racism and the other via multiculturalism), and of course a side effect of the melting pot is no single defining "culture" by which to define ourselves.

I'm not optimistic about U.S. togetherness anytime soon.

Frank Herbert's Dune has a good quote about this, but my search skills are weak this morning.

 

[taxi1]

I think that is where you get the "middle", pickle, of which I would consider myself to be a part of.

I was just reading an article this morning...

Yet as Americans wonder if anything is worth preserving, as the past “will inevitably fail to meet the evolving standards of the present”, Philbrick recalls Americans to that past: “If our country is ever going to improve in the future, we need to look the past full in the face today, and there at the very beginning” stands Washington, with all his faults but also encouraging unity by his example.

Washington worried about a future president who focused on dividing the country rather than uniting it, “agitates the community with ill-founded jealousies and false alarms, kindles the animosity of one part against another, foments occasionally riot and insurrection”. He offered wise counsel: “When matters get to such lengths … a middle course would be found the best.”

 

[Griz882]

Interesting.

I wouldn’t equate firearm ownership as being capable or individual action or violence or equate that to disparity in arms.

If we have learned anything from the past wars- that means almost nothing

Really? What wars are you referencing?

 

[Spekkio]

I joined this site back in 2007 for recruiting advice. I still come here because it's often the best source of current / significant events in the navy and I enjoy the commentary.

I think if both extremes stopped trying to impose their will on the other (and thus the masses), we'd be just fine. Both speak in blatantly obvious ideological inconsistencies...

I think that the differences are exagerated by media (both social and traditional) in order to sell ads / clicks. In particular, headlines are often extreme takes on what actually happened with outlandish adjectives like "slammed" or "blasted," and few people will bother to read the article for the nuances contained within. This was magnified during the Trump administration where the headline would make it sound like Trump said some ridiculous shit, and it turns out it was ridiculous because he never said it. Congress manages to pass bi-partisan bills on a regular basis, the most significant being the DoD budget. D's and R's are all friends and people cut from the same cloth.... when they're not grandstanding in front of Fox News / CNN / et al, they're drinking scotch together in a chic upscale DC bar / restaurant.

We've come a long way from duels among politicians and fist fights in Congressional sessions.

The strife in the U.S. now reminds me of an essay I had to write in Strategy & Policy (JMPE class for the luckily uninitiated). The question was what makes better allies: common policy or a common enemy. I naively answered the former, but I think with another 10 years of life, I've realized everyone needs an "other" by which to define themselves or their group.

Pro-tip for anyone taking JPME: You're not supposed to have an opinion, you're supposed to write an essay with supporting details on what the syllabus says is the right answer.

I was just reading an article this morning...

Yet as Americans wonder if anything is worth preserving, as the past “will inevitably fail to meet the evolving standards of the present”, Philbrick recalls Americans to that past: “If our country is ever going to improve in the future, we need to look the past full in the face today, and there at the very beginning” stands Washington, with all his faults but also encouraging unity by his example.

I don't think that America is near the end. I do think that the U.S. will have to learn, begrugingly or otherwise, to play nice with other world powers, particularly China.

On a personal level, I cringe on the inside when any non-combat experienced person chest thumps about going to war with China. It actually has the opposite effect its intended to have. We gonna kill a whole bunch of people because they built some fake islands and place military forces on an island that the U.S. doesn't officially recognize as an independent country? Fantastic.

Interestingly enough, our tactical inspections got rid of the fake names for nations where we have potential conflict. Got a bit awkward when the crew had a Chinese national onboard and everyone was making memes about killing Chinese people instead of "Churyans."

 

[nodropinufaka]

Really? What wars are you referencing?

We lost Afghanistan to a bunch of farmers with soviet era AKs and no C2 or C4ISR.

We lost Iraq to ISIS the same way.

VNM too if we want to go back that far.

 

[picklesuit]

We lost Afghanistan to a bunch of farmers with soviet era AKs and no C2 or C4ISR.

We lost Iraq to ISIS the same way.

VNM too if we want to go back that far.

Afghanistan wasn’t “lost”, we left. There was no military defeat, we just left.

ISIS never defeated the US, we just left, created a power vacuum, which they filled, which we then crushed, leaving most of them to occupy prisons and IDP camps in Syria.

Viet-Nam wasn’t a war we lost as a military, it was a war the politicians didn’t have the guts to fight in an unlimited fashion, and which the media/societal elite abandoned because they couldn’t separate the footage from Tet from the military success we had through Tet.

Every one of your examples is wrong. If you want to find the culprit, look to the media and the politicians trying to take advantage of the pictures they were delivering, with no regard to the reality on the ground.

Once again, you show how shallow your understanding of the real world is…adults are talking @nodropinufaka you’re out of your element…

Pickle

 

[AllAmerican75]

I've been a member since 2005 and I miss some of the older posters that are no longer around; a4sforever (Can't give you his name), BZB604 (Hugh Magee), RonDebMar (Ron Marron), and many others. Met some members in person. Oh... and I miss crawling all over A4 Skyhawks?.

Man, I really miss those guys (Even MB). I missed the ruckus that ran many of them off but I do miss their sea stories and perspective.

I have a question.

Why do people care so much about diversity initiatives? Some people act as if it is a personal insult and are incredibly emotionally invested in the subject. I don't understand it.

Why are people so concerned?

It's absolutely useless. You can accomplish everything the diversity initiatives claim to do with a swingin' steel beach, plenty of beer, and a few good port calls.