Less than 2 weeks ago at AAAA, MG Gill said he wanted to bid a Commercial Solution Offering this summer. Technically pre-decisional, but that's coming up pretty quickly.
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- Thread starter Randy Daytona
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Gen Gill is 1/6 of the decision.
It’s called a General Officer Steering committee for a reason. (Though humorously one of the most influential members still hasn’t pinned his star). Nothing is close to being done.
Then there is the drama of whatever Aviation as a branch decides on, it still goes to TRADOC for their approval, which could get to have some unique delta in it considering who the current commander is.
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I have had a chance to do some flying in the R66 and honestly didn't hate it. Sure, the T-Cyclic looks weird, but within about 5 seconds of lifting off I completely forgot about it. Seriously, it feels, acts, and moves just like any other cyclic. They also did a redesign in 2023 to address the mast-bumping issue.
As far as an IFR Cert, none of the helicopters being seriously considered have one. The AW119 and the Bell 407 GXi are the only two single-engine IFR certified helicopters on the market right now. In my opinion, the 407 is by far the best option out there, but like you said, at close to $5M a copy it's not very competitive.
Also, don't think I'm saying this as some sort of Robinson fanboy - heck, I was a 505 instructor at the Bell Training Academy before I got pulled back on to active duty - but I think people are giving the R66 a lot of flack based on incomplete or inaccurate information, and a lot of, "That ain't the way I did it back in my day" thinking. Ultimately, any trainer the Army goes with will come with compromises, but I think the R66 does check a lot of the right boxes.
So let's say they decide the T-cyclic is too scary and take the R66 off the table. Which aircraft do you think they should go with instead?
When you say "they're working on" you mean Skyryse, not Robinson. Skyryse is one option, sure, but it's not the only option. In fact, newer R66s, like the ones currently being used by Helicopter Institute for Flight School Next are leaving the factory with a Garmin G500 coupled with a GTN-750. There's even an STC out there to refit older R66s with the same Genesys avionics suite that's in the TH-73.
As far as an IFR Cert, none of the helicopters being seriously considered have one. The AW119 and the Bell 407 GXi are the only two single-engine IFR certified helicopters on the market right now. In my opinion, the 407 is by far the best option out there, but like you said, at close to $5M a copy it's not very competitive.
Also, don't think I'm saying this as some sort of Robinson fanboy - heck, I was a 505 instructor at the Bell Training Academy before I got pulled back on to active duty - but I think people are giving the R66 a lot of flack based on incomplete or inaccurate information, and a lot of, "That ain't the way I did it back in my day" thinking. Ultimately, any trainer the Army goes with will come with compromises, but I think the R66 does check a lot of the right boxes.
So let's say they decide the T-cyclic is too scary and take the R66 off the table. Which aircraft do you think they should go with instead?
For the record, I’m currently at Novosel getting to routinely share in the collective unhappiness with anything the way it is, but don’t get that twisted with anything in its current state being concrete or final.
There are some pretty severe fiefdoms in this gestational cesspool that have been able to establish little circles of power, and nobody to include Gill can singularly crush some of the bad trends or previously initiated efforts without a buttload of politicking and money we currently don’t have.
I will whole heartedly support you guys pointing and laughing at anybody introducing themselves as a “tactics instructors.” Misrepresentation and co-opting reputations as SMEs they didn’t earn is like a way of life for some of them. Apparently any sew shop can just make patches guys, who knew.
There are some pretty severe fiefdoms in this gestational cesspool that have been able to establish little circles of power, and nobody to include Gill can singularly crush some of the bad trends or previously initiated efforts without a buttload of politicking and money we currently don’t have.
I will whole heartedly support you guys pointing and laughing at anybody introducing themselves as a “tactics instructors.” Misrepresentation and co-opting reputations as SMEs they didn’t earn is like a way of life for some of them. Apparently any sew shop can just make patches guys, who knew.
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Perhaps the Army is still considering a hybrid training pipeline?
breakingdefense.com
Army upgrading helo pilot training under Flight School Next, seeks new aircraft - Breaking Defense
“We will teach them to be integrators and flight integrators on the back end of that, but we want them to be masters of their craft, of being able to fly a helicopter the old-fashioned way,” Army Vice Chief of Staff Gen. James Mingus said.
breakingdefense.com
That's weird. The article is dated yesterday but it's really out of date. They're already doing it.Perhaps the Army is still considering a hybrid training pipeline?
Army upgrading helo pilot training under Flight School Next, seeks new aircraft - Breaking Defense
“We will teach them to be integrators and flight integrators on the back end of that, but we want them to be masters of their craft, of being able to fly a helicopter the old-fashioned way,” Army Vice Chief of Staff Gen. James Mingus said.
US Army awards Initial Rotary Wing Flight Training to The Helicopter Institute - PPRuNe Forums
Rotorheads - US Army awards Initial Rotary Wing Flight Training to The Helicopter Institute - Historic U.S. Army FAA Part 141 Helicopter Flight School Pilot Program Awarded Marianna, FL - February 28, 2025 - Crew Training International (CTI) in partnership with Helicopter Institute, collectively...
www.pprune.org
It's the same company that's doing COPT-R. They're flying R66s out of Mariana.
Maybe this is something else?
I saw this…it appears to be a “test run” to see if it works.That's weird. The article is dated yesterday but it's really out of date. They're already doing it.
US Army awards Initial Rotary Wing Flight Training to The Helicopter Institute - PPRuNe Forums
Rotorheads - US Army awards Initial Rotary Wing Flight Training to The Helicopter Institute - Historic U.S. Army FAA Part 141 Helicopter Flight School Pilot Program Awarded Marianna, FL - February 28, 2025 - Crew Training International (CTI) in partnership with Helicopter Institute, collectively...www.pprune.org
It's the same company that's doing COPT-R. They're flying R66s out of Mariana.
Maybe this is something else?
Flight School students at Alabama’s Fort Novosel lead major Army Aviation change - Alabama News Center
A set of students at Alabama's Fort Novosel are leading change in Army Aviation as the first Flight School Next class.
alabamanewscenter.com
As stated in the article.Flight School students at Alabama’s Fort Novosel lead major Army Aviation change - Alabama News Center
A set of students at Alabama's Fort Novosel are leading change in Army Aviation as the first Flight School Next class.
“Flight School Next is an opportunity for our aviators to get more time at the controls understanding the basics of flying the helicopter, especially during their core foundational aviation experience, and at cost savings,” ... “This foundational training is the building block our aviators need before they step into their graduate-level aircraft of either the AH-64, UH-60 or CH-47.”
Personally, I think they need an intermediate aircraft before going to their final combat aircraft.
Time will tell if the race to the bottom translates to combat excellence.
I thought that was the plan…primary to “intermediate” to tactical. Perhaps the Lakota’s will stay around for the intermediate phase?
On a side note, based on my 40ish hours in a R44, I still believe the Robinson product is the wrong aircraft for aircraft for this.
Has anyone had an "intermediate" helicopter trainer since 1985?
What's the right aircraft? Bell no longer supports the 206 and a 407 GXi costs around $5 Million.
I should also say that I agree with you. Something the like R66 for FAM maneuvers followed by the EC135 for instruments and tactics would be a pretty great combination, but they'll never fund something like that. Especially right now. It was less than 10 years ago when the Army convinced Congress to fork over one billion dollars because the Lakota was going to be the trainer of the future. Now they're back asking for more money because that didn't work out so well. Their next proposal has to be as inexpensive as possible or it will never get approved.
I'm worried that the Navy is rapidly heading in the same direction with the TH-73.
I think that's the point many of us old salts are pointing out.
I remember going from the TH-57 to the TH-1L.
It seemed like a huge step at the time, and was a great confidence builder.
It also allowed one's ability to transition to other aircraft to be observed in a pure training environment.
So... T-28 to TH-57 to TH-1 before fleet transition into the CH-46.
Solid observed growth as an aviator, prior to reaching your fleet/tactical aircraft.
As an aside, I will never forget my "solo" in the TH-1L (2 students = solo).
The Iranian student with me, after the preflight and buckling in, he said on the IC...'You go ahead and fly, I'll just sit here and smoke cigarettes.'
Which is exactly what and all he did. Except for when he took the controls for 5 minutes returning to Whiting from Maxwell.
He flew us into inadvertent IMC with a lowering overcast ceiling.
I had to take the controls, call ATC and get an approach into Whiting.
In some ways, I guess I really was solo!
What's old is new again. All these scenarios had been visited in past, just the names (models of aircraft) have changed. The TH-57 B/C was considered crazy at the time of design and requirements.
I could see a IFR B505 with a modern Garmin AP. Get FAA to adopt a different mindset for standard category IFR adoption.
I'm surprised at the comment on TH-73 costs. Are CPH not hitting targets? I was under the impression that the 73 was at the intersection of training quality and efficiency.
I could see a IFR B505 with a modern Garmin AP. Get FAA to adopt a different mindset for standard category IFR adoption.
I'm surprised at the comment on TH-73 costs. Are CPH not hitting targets? I was under the impression that the 73 was at the intersection of training quality and efficiency.
Pretty sure the only place I've seen that is in Leonardo marketing materials. 🤣 My understanding is that it's been kind of a nightmare so far. The old TH-57s that they still have are actually doing a better job at meeting their availability requirements.
A - Probably not going to happen. The 505 doesn't have a lot of extra room for additional generators or pitot-static equipment. Plus, by the time you did it you'd start getting into the 407 price range.
B - How would learning to fly from day one with a modern Garmin AP help students transition? That's the problem the Army was having with the Lakota. It's too automated and so the students end up becoming systems managers instead of pilots. Sure, that's important to know as they get into more modern aircraft, but it would be like teaching your kid to drive and using the adaptive cruise control and lane keep assist every time he gets on the freeway. They need to learn the basics of how helicopters work first because sure as God made puppies, at some point that stuff will fail on them.
C-Going from a 505 with a G1000 and a Garmin AP to a MH-60S or R would be like going from a 2025 Toyota Corolla to a 2012 Mercedes S class. Sure, the -60S is a lot bigger and more feature-packed, but it's avionics is still over 20 years old. It would be a pretty drastic step backwards.