-
Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?
Go here:
Edit Account Details and Profile
Low Flying B-52
- Thread starter HAL Pilot
- Start date
NavyLonghorn
Registered User
I was curious why the NFO's couldnt help with coordinated flight.. but then I realised they dont have any balls back there.
My understanding of the B-52 airshow incident was that the CO wanted to yank the guys wings, but couldn't because AF brass thought it would be embarrassing to ground a senior pilot, so only the CO flew with this guy from then on.
What I always wondered was why the CO let this someone that he had such concerns about have the controls during an airshow? I don't know any of the politics involved, or anything about crew flying, but if I were in that situation, I wouldn't want to risk my life. Anyone have a guess?
What I always wondered was why the CO let this someone that he had such concerns about have the controls during an airshow? I don't know any of the politics involved, or anything about crew flying, but if I were in that situation, I wouldn't want to risk my life. Anyone have a guess?
I posted this before, but here it is again. Read this and it will answer all your questions.
http://s92270093.onlinehome.us/CRM-Devel/resources/paper/darkblue/darkblue.htm
http://s92270093.onlinehome.us/CRM-Devel/resources/paper/darkblue/darkblue.htm
zpatman
Member
not trying to revive the thread or anything but after the airshow incident with Col. Holland did the navy side feel any heat about air shows, trouble children, anything of that sort or was it mainly the air force that bore the consequences of letting a loose cannon run free for so long?
If you want to see the pattern of behavior that lead up to the incident, watch this video. It's certainly entertaining up until the sudden point it becomes decidedly not, seems to be the way things like this work.
I'm all for pushing the limits every once in a while, but there is definitely a difference between pushing it and reckless abandon. It's been harped on many times before but this guy was clearly an accident waiting to happen, just a shame now everyone has suffer for him being an idiot.
I thought the best line in that case report was this-
I guess I'd never thought about it before, for some reason I always viewed those two things as being inextricably linked. As a pilot in the very early stages of learning that seems like an interesting and important distinction to make.
There's a cliched poster from the Safety Center that superior aircrew use their superior judgement to avoid situations where they have to use their superior skills. Cliche? Yes. But that's because there's truth in it . . .
What a horrible organization the USAF must be, with two fatal incidents of pilots who didn't strictly abide by the tech data over 16 years, with the apparently being caused by 'not learning' from history.
Of course, Naval Aviation has never had any hot-doggers that died because they thought they were too good for the rules. The Navy is widely known for their tight adherence to rules in aviation, whereas the USAF is generally thought of as a bunch of cowboys.
Please use the sarcasm font when appropropiate.
I think the difference in the BUFF mishap is that it was such a long-term leadership failure. The Navy has certainly had those too but the visibility of the final straw was not as public. I was at a bachelor party at Mich State in a bar when all the big screens showed the crash footage. There was a collective gasp.
The Navy had a very similar chain of failures in the early 90's that came to light in an F-16N mishap in Idaho falls. The MIR was released to all TACAIR and was required briefing. I would advocate similar mishaps be released across service lines to try and get the lessons out.
Have you seen the fancy computer re-creation that the AF made of that C-17 mishap? I have. Let me tell you what, I can't even imagine that series of events taking place on any Navy flight deck. Do you know why? Because we put a flight engineer up there that will smack the shit out of a pilot who does anything close to what that guy did. If you haven't seen it and have access to it, watch it.
You seriously underestimate the stupidity of a few FEs, they can lack common sense just like Naval Aviators, NFOs and even USAF pilots too. Most are worth their weight in gold but a few just ain't all there. Stupid knows no bounds to include rank, age, experience or service.
Oh, please.
Yes, I've seen the video, heard the CVR, read the report. The idea that an FE would have been the key to saving the day is asinine. There were plenty of people on that airplane who could have stopped that chain of events.
The fact that you "can't imagine" that series of events happening in a Navy aircraft means that you're either totally unimaginative or totally ignorant. Just because you haven't seen something like that during your time in the TACAMO doesn't mean that stuff like that doesn't -- or wouldn't -- happen anywhere in your service. It certainly, absolutely, without question HAS happened in the history of your service, just like it has in mine. Period.
I love it how the peeps on this board want to have it both ways; usually, you guys are poking the USAF for being a bunch of over-rule-following pencilnecks that "can't do anything unless it's spelled out in the regs" (with the sharp implication that the Navy's 'if it doesn't say you CAN'T do it...' philosophy is the Truly Superior Way Of The Light), and yet here the USAF is being painted as a bunch of hotdogs while you're claiming the USN features only super-professional and perfect aviators who would never think of being such idiots.
C'mon...get out from behind your service bias and look at it for what it is: an isolated and tragic incident that could happen anywhere, in any community, given the right circumstances.