Why do I suck (with some iron sights)?

[Gatordev]

First up, let me preface this post by saying that this is not meant to brag. Quite the opposite. I'm trying to figure out what's different and how it makes me not able to hit the broad side of a barn. Also, I figured I'd ask here because there's less risk of a Johnson contest here, unlike some other internet outlets.

I've been playing with iron sights over the last few months, both to zero/make sure they work on guns with other optics as well as just to keep proficiency. I've found that I'm able to be very accurate with certain BUIS/IS and not with others and I'm trying to crack the code. Admittedly, I'm also trying to shoot while being far-sided with an astigmatism, so that makes prolonged staring at a front sight post more challenging.

The players: M1, Troy BUIS (both conventional and dioptic), Colt carry handle rear w/ FSP, KAC micro BUIS.

-I've found that the M1 sight (and by extension, the M1A sight, though I don't own one) works well for me. The limitations I've run into are mostly shooter and occasionally barrel (I think my Springfield is more accurate than my H&R at 100 yards).

-I've been able to hit a clay pigeon at 200 yards with the KAC sights (although it did take 4 rounds to do it). For my limited abilities, I find that impressive and I'm convinced the sight can take a lot of the credit (this is on a SR-15 E3 w/ SSA trigger).

-Today, I was able to shoot a relatively nice group with a Colt carry handle sight at 50 yards while zeroing it on my 6920 (pic below...right target, ignore the left, it was a T-1 getting zeroed on my Noveske). It was also much easier to "see" the target and keep the group consistent with that sight than the Troys.

-The Troys... Some days are better than others, but I still haven't been as consistent with these as I have been above.

So what's the secret? I think I've come up with diopter size as the answer, but I welcome thoughts. The Troy rear sights seem to be pretty damn close to a standard carry handle, and yet the results aren't the same. This is the part that baffles me.

 

[Flugelman]

At first blush, I would say the aperture size in the rear sight. The larger the rear aperture, the more room for angular displacement. I'm not familiar with any of the sights except the M-1 so it's just a guess on my part. We would teach the plebes the importance of sight alignment by demonstrating with a blank target and having them concentrate solely on the front sight. No matter how much overall movement you have, if the sights remain aligned, it's like shooting down a pipe the diameter of your shake. This analogy seemed to turn some lights on for them.

 

[Rocketman]

I think Flugelman nailed it. I'm pretty sure I'm correct in saying that the KAC micro BUIS has a smaller aperture than the Troy BUIS. I don't know but I'm going to guess that the Carry handle sight (using the long range aperture flipped up) has an aperture that is smaller than both. I love Troy's BUIS but I've never done anything more with them other than get them "close enough" for use as a BUIS. My groups are pretty ugly using the larger 0-200m aperture on the carry handle sights too.

I have a T-1 on one of my Noveske's too...........nice

 

[Gatordev]

That seems to really only be the one major variable (other than the knucklehead behind the rifle). On my Noveske, the front sight is a DD fixed front and if it's any thicker than the KAC front sight, it's negligible. I think a F-marked FSP might be a little thinker than the KAC, but not really so for the DD. The curved horns on the KAC help, but since the carry handle tends to work for me with the FSP, it doesn't seem to be that big a deal.

I'm pretty sure I'm correct in saying that the KAC micro BUIS has a smaller aperture than the Troy BUIS. I don't know but I'm going to guess that the Carry handle sight (using the long range aperture flipped up) has an aperture that is smaller than both.

I just looked at the KAC and the carry handle next to one another and they look to be the same size, so that all makes sense. I'm thinking of cutting the carry handle down to make a poor man's LMT rear sight. I figure that's cheaper than buying one...I just need to come up with a Dremel.

I have a T-1 on one of my Noveske's too...........nice

I managed to come by a "used" 2 MOA unit for sale online that was a good price cut since it came with a Larue mount. I don't think it was ever used to shoot (and so said the ad). Part of today's project was moving my PRO from my Noveske to the 6920 and putting the T-1 on the Noveske. I have a hard time getting excited about paying retail for a T-1, but this is the second one I've come by "used" at a good price and they're pretty nice. The other one is a 4 MOA version on my SBR back home. The Noveske is now even more stupid light than before since shedding the extra few ounces of the PRO.

All this accessorizing makes me long for being back in FL where I could shoot a carbine competition of some kind at least once a month. Patience, I guess...

 

[phrogpilot73]

This may seem like a stupid question, but have you checked what your eye/hand dominance is? I'm a fucking sniper with the pistol (6th Award Expert, Squadron/Range high shooter last go-round), but can barely make sharpshooter with a rifle. Why? I'm right handed, but left eye dominant. I can use my left eye for pistol, but it takes me half my time on the rifle range to make the sighting adjustments because I have to use my right eye. Sometimes, I actually run out of windage to correct for it. With optics, I'm pretty damn good with a rifle. Iron sights? I suck an elephant dong.

 

[insanebikerboy]

but can barely make sharpshooter with a rifle. Why? I'm right handed, but left eye dominant.

Switch to shooting lefthanded on the rifle. That is the only answer if you actually want to shoot the rifle well, otherwise you'll just keep chasing your tail.

 

[ea6bflyr]

Switch to shooting lefthanded on the rifle. That is the only answer if you actually want to shoot the rifle well, otherwise you'll just keep chasing your tail.

Or "suck[ing] an elephant dong"

-ea6bflyr

 

[HackerF15E]

How are you shooting? Supported or offhand? With or without a sling?

 

[Rocketman]

Switch to shooting lefthanded on the rifle. That is the only answer if you actually want to shoot the rifle well, otherwise you'll just keep chasing your tail.

One of my kids is right handed and left eye dominant. I taught him to shoot left handed when he was young and he's never looked back. I can't imagine making that switch now as an adult. I can shoot a pistol left handed but I'm terrible with a rifle left handed.

 

[Gatordev]

This may seem like a stupid question, but have you checked what your eye/hand dominance is? I'm a fucking sniper with the pistol (6th Award Expert, Squadron/Range high shooter last go-round), but can barely make sharpshooter with a rifle. Why? I'm right handed, but left eye dominant. I can use my left eye for pistol, but it takes me half my time on the rifle range to make the sighting adjustments because I have to use my right eye. Sometimes, I actually run out of windage to correct for it. With optics, I'm pretty damn good with a rifle. Iron sights? I suck an elephant dong.

I'm left-eye/right hand dominant. That's another reason why I can only shoot iron sights for so long before I need to take a break. The mild astigmatism (oh look, the FSP is in focus...oh, there it goes) and the eye dominance thing are the two main reasons why I tend to not shoot irons sights much, but like I said, I was trying to get back into it lately just for practice...plus it's just a blast to shoot the M1.

By the way, you can train yourself to switch eye dominance. I haven't bothered because when I use an optic of some kind (magnified or RDS), it's not much of an issue, but some of the old guys at the local range have mentioned they've switched with practice and a blinder (this comes up at the Women on Target that I help with as part of my "community service" for the local club I'm a member of).

How are you shooting? Supported or offhand? With or without a sling?

All of the above. M1 is with a sling, sitting or prone. The AR is usually w/out a sling but supported when shooting iron sights. Yesterday I was just shooting prone, with bipod and rear bag. I wasn't trying to be a ninja, just zeroing my gear, and I figured I'd ask the question here.

I think I know what you're getting at, and obviously the level of accuracy goes down (for me) the less supported/slung I am. I think the aperture size is the key here, though, but figured I'd see if I was out to lunch with that idea. At the end of the day, I guess I just need to keep shooting and practice. I'm willing to take that challenge.

 

[Renegade One]

First up, let me preface this post by saying that this is not meant to brag. Quite the opposite. I'm trying to figure out what's different and how it makes me not able to hit the broad side of a barn...then a whole lot more...

"It's a poor carpenter who blames his tools."

 

[sodajones]

The basics.

Trigger control, sight alignment, sight picture, good stock weld and consistent eye relief. Slow, steady squeeze with consistent follow through on every shot. Don't expect the shot, let the rifle surprise you every time. I'm sure you know them and I'm simply listing them for everyone's benefit - certainly not to be condescending.

No matter the rifle, as long as it's not a total piece of trash then the application of the basics will bring results. I can only imagine what the right hand/left eye dominant thing does to complicate the application of the basics. I would recommend switching to the left hand. The initial change over may be daunting but I really believe in the long run you'll get the results you're looking for by making the switch.

 

[Gatordev]

The basics.

Trigger control, sight alignment, sight picture, good stock weld and consistent eye relief. Slow, steady squeeze with consistent follow through on every shot. Don't expect the shot, let the rifle surprise you every time. I'm sure you know them and I'm simply listing them for everyone's benefit - certainly not to be condescending.

All good stuff. Yesterday I happened to be using the standard Colt trigger, which is fine for quicker/close stuff, but man, is that thing stiff when trying to do any kind of precision stuff. But as you said, applying those fundamentals gets you through it. And my SSA sure does spoil me.

No matter the rifle, as long as it's not a total piece of trash then the application of the basics will bring results. I can only imagine what the right hand/left eye dominant thing does to complicate the application of the basics. I would recommend switching to the left hand. The initial change over may be daunting but I really believe in the long run you'll get the results you're looking for by making the switch.

I guess that's where I don't think it's worth the effort. I'm actually getting the results I'm looking for shooting right eye with most sighting systems. I've found some solutions for those systems that are more problematic (KAC/carry handle/LMT), especially when the majority of my shooting my AR is with something other than BUIS. But I take your point. I've done several carbine competitions where you have to shoot lefty (as well as in a class I took), and it's awkward, but overcomeable (I swear that's a word...).

"It's a poor carpenter who blames his tools."

Oh, good grief. My modesty prevents me from even responding to that.

 

[Sapper!]

A re hash of what as said above. A while back in a another thread I mentioned you might want to try high power and I remember your response was that you would like to have a little more experience before attempting. However, I would like to say that with standard iron sights I never was that great with a rifle and sucked pretty bad. I had the same reservations about trying high power until I figured out how much a purpose built rifle does the work for me. (hence I bring up the old thread, because admittedly I probably shoot ten times worse than you ever have and jumped right into highpower!)

So my point is that I shot a match rifle with hooded sights and as long as I dialed in the drop/got the ranges (known on a National Match across the course) I was a ringer with the narrowed sights. They definitely take a great portion of the muscle memory out of shooting. The price you pay is that in low light it's tough to guage before attempting a few shots as to what size hood opening you will need. Also, using a narrowed front sight blade helped my sight picture a ton. Thank god for optics on my carbine otherwise, no target would ever have reason to fear.

Since you have done a lot of formal training, I'd say the other big thing is religiously practice at home your natural point of aim as well as the rest of the fundamentals. But really get that natural point of aim down for whatever shooting style/positions you will be using whatever they might be. Be careful jumping from carbines with things like pistol grips to more traditional rises and combs. I made a couple of bad habits with those stupid forend pistol grips, but they have their uses I guess.

My rambling probably didn't help you one bit.....

This is the rear sight I am running, that you probably wouldnt want to use for anything else but high power match shooting
http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/product.php?productid=17661&cat=256&page=3
there are much cheaper models that come with sets of interchangeable hoods for different lighting conditions.

some smaller sight blades (no doubt you've seen these before)
http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/xcart/product.php?productid=17707&cat=256&page=4

Another thing a sniper school guy showed me was to put an extra finger (ring finger scrunched up) on top of the bump in the AR pistol grip, put my whole index finger through the trigger well, and slowly squeeze my whole hand and to keep the trigger down until the rifle was done cycling (you hear the audible "thunk" upon release, just like when completing a functions check) That helped me a S*(# ton even on my regular carbine. I'd definitely recommend trying that because it worked so well for me, but it will destroy any accuracy if you use that technique with a pistol. It definitely does not work the same way.

 

[Gatordev]

Sapper,

Appreciate the follow up. I think I need to get off my butt and figure out how the Navy Shooting Team PAC (?...Group? Whatever they're called) does their thing, since I think they're "based" out of San Diego/Camp Pen. Not because I think I'll be their next ringer, but as a way to learn some more. I also think you give me too much credit on my training. I've only taken a couple of classes, but most of my learning is from talking/watching other guys when I can compete locally (here or FL). Which brings me to why I appreciate your post. A big thing I enjoy about shooting is that there's always more to learn (kind of like flying), so I welcome the input.

I never really "got" the natural point of aim until I took that SPR course from Magpul. I think it was just a lack of comprehension on my part. After doing a drill with that, it's amazing how much unwanted "input" you can make to a gun if you don't just relax. Like you said, another great part of the fundamentals.