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AFSOC endorses CV-22

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Reversing their recent stance airing concerns on the CV-22 Osprey, head of AFSOC recently praised transformational capability of the Osprey and espouses full confidence in the CV-22 variant that will be operated by Air Force Special Operations replacing the aging MH-53 Pave Low helicopters.

V-22_CV-22.jpg
 

RHPF

Active Member
pilot
Contributor
Have to love a SOF 'helo' without guns. Fantastic idea.
I like the Osprey, but I think as it stands it is a poor decision for this mission.

I raised this concern a few years back, and at the time the AF's answer was to fly 2 CV-22s with 2 MH-53s flying cover. There is a problem with that, you lose the 'stealth', the speed, and the range.

Will be interesting to see what pans out...

Edit: I am aware that as a last minute 'appendage' they made a gun option on the ramp.
 

HueyCobra8151

Well-Known Member
pilot
I heard that on the AFSOC model, the refueling arm looking thing out front is actually a 30mm cannon.

They could always put a ball turret on the belly ala the B-17...that would be kickass.

Edit: Sorry, guess it wasn't thick enough, lemme fix it:

/sarcasm
 

RHPF

Active Member
pilot
Contributor
I met with one of the test flight engineers about 2 years ago...

At the time, he said the pilots had asked for a articulated cannon (like an Apache), but they they didn't have the room for it.

The refueling arm on a SOF bird is going to be even more critical given the distance covered, I am sure it is not a 30mm cannon.
 

Firehawk

New Member
Have to love a SOF 'helo' without guns. Fantastic idea.
I like the Osprey, but I think as it stands it is a poor decision for this mission.

I raised this concern a few years back, and at the time the AF's answer was to fly 2 CV-22s with 2 MH-53s flying cover. There is a problem with that, you lose the 'stealth', the speed, and the range.

Will be interesting to see what pans out...

I find it seriously hard to believe that they're going to allow that bird into any kind of threat environment without any crew-served weapons...might as well turn all the lights on and hang an 'open for business' sign on the door.

As for stealth...neither aircraft is inherently stealthy. Even with IR supression on the V-22, that thing sets up on final twice as far away as the 53...and they'll hear it comin'. Pretty damned hard to hide something THAT large.

Troops already complain about the rotor wash the -53 kicks up, and how dangerous that becomes in an urban environment when things start flying off clotheslines, front porches, roofs, ect. Just wait till they get a load of what this thing kicks up!

It's an incredibly poor decision for close-in SOF missions. I find the term "bull in a China shop" perfect for this situation. I totally agree with you.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
I find it seriously hard to believe that they're going to allow that bird into any kind of threat environment without any crew-served weapons...might as well turn all the lights on and hang an 'open for business' sign on the door.

As for stealth...neither aircraft is inherently stealthy. Even with IR supression on the V-22, that thing sets up on final twice as far away as the 53...and they'll hear it comin'. Pretty damned hard to hide something THAT large.

Troops already complain about the rotor wash the -53 kicks up, and how dangerous that becomes in an urban environment when things start flying off clotheslines, front porches, roofs, ect. Just wait till they get a load of what this thing kicks up!

It's an incredibly poor decision for close-in SOF missions. I find the term "bull in a China shop" perfect for this situation. I totally agree with you.

The need for multiple crew-served weapons is mitigrated by a lot of factors.

It has a lot smaller signature than a 53 while it's in APLN. IR and aural sig are greatly reduced. It does set up for a longer final, but when that final is started at over 200 knots, you're reducing the enemy's ability to hit you.

The countermeasures suite, esp on the CV, is going to be very robust. No, I'm not going to list the systems, but it's going to be better than just about any other assault (or "infil" to use the USAF lingo) platform out there. The IR manpad threat is going to be minimized.

As far as weapons, I think the old school overplays the utility of the machine gun out the side. BUT, there is some good she-ite coming down the pike that will allay the fears of even the most ardent "but there's no gun" crowd. The ramp-mounted weapons system is called "interim" for a reason.

Total rotor wash is comparable to a 53. There are some areas where is it focused and some where it is less, but lifties down always=weight up. A 40-50000 lb aircraft is going to have some downwash.

The V-22 is IDEAL for the preponderance of SOF missions. Hell, usually anti-V22ers say something like,"It'd be great for special operations, but not for conventional forces." Range, speed, and low-observability are big assets anytime, but especially in that arena.
 

Firehawk

New Member
As far as weapons, I think the old school overplays the utility of the machine gun out the side. BUT, there is some good she-ite coming down the pike that will allay the fears of even the most ardent "but there's no gun" crowd. The ramp-mounted weapons system is called "interim" for a reason.

Well, this old-school guy knows first-hand the value of a crew-served weapon in a tight spot. Try telling the SOF troops at the brief that there won't be any guns overhead, and look for the reaction.

There's two parts to the helo role of the SOF mission...the actual infil/exfil, and ISR/hover cover. We don't just dump troops and leave. It's a great thing that the -22 can make a run into the target and infil quickly, but the SOF guys are still going to need overhead low and slow weapons coverage. Since the -22 currently isn't capable of providing that close-in cover (would LOVE to hear what you know is coming that will trump machine guns :eyebrows_ ), they will still need to wait for the slower guys to show up and provide cover. In my humble opinion, that negates the best part about the bird for the SOF role. Getting to the fight fast is one thing, but when you need to orbit and wait for the rest of the package to show up, it really doesn't mean much.

Now, for the Marines and fast infil, the aircraft is perfect. They come in quick and covert, dump a shed-load of troops, and get out. The -22 wasn't designed as a close-in weapons platform, so it's always going to need support aircraft to complete the SOF mission package.
 

Firehawk

New Member
The V-22 is IDEAL for the preponderance of SOF missions. Hell, usually anti-V22ers say something like,"It'd be great for special operations, but not for conventional forces." Range, speed, and low-observability are big assets anytime, but especially in that arena.

Guess I'm just seeing things from a different perspective.

They kept telling us that the -53D was a great SOF platform too...but the troops kept requesting the -60 for close-in stuff. Guess sometimes big aircraft just worry the guys.
 
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