Aircraft Recoveries

[Owen]

All,
The U S Navy is taking steps in preparation to recovery a WWII
training plane that went down in Michigan. They are seeking comments
from the public. Please read the potice posted below, give it some
consideration, and post your thoughts. For those wishing to put
their thoughts on paper, the mailing address is:

Mr. Buddy Macon
National Naval Aviation Museum
1750 Radford Blvd., Suite C
Pensacola, FL 32508

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


The Department of the Navy (DON) through the National Naval Aviation Museum (NNAM) is taking steps to recover, conserve and restore a World War II-era F6F-3 Hellcat fighter aircraft (Bureau Number 25910) from Lake Michigan and eventual delivery to the NNAM. The aircraft in question has combat history by its assignment to VF-38 during the time the squadron flew in the Pacific Theater during the Solomon Islands campaign. In as much as the aircraft resides in State owned waters of Michigan, the DON through the NNAM is working with the State Historic Preservation Office (SHPO) to satisfy the needs of Section 106 of the National Historic Preservation Act.

One of the sections of this process is to invite public comment about this undertaking and its possible positive or negative effect upon this historic property.

The aircraft in question currently rests in 260 Foot of water and will require ROV type vehicles as well as divers. The method of operation will be the same that has been utilized by the NNAM in over 35 successful recoveries.

Comments are requested on the undertaking from the general public and the Warbird Resource Group, the latter an appropriate choice due to its international online network.

Buddy Macon
Deputy Director
National Naval Aviation Museum
NASP, Fl. 32508

 

[jt71582]

I just saw a Dauntless they recovered and are working on here at the NNAM - these guys do awesome things with these old warbirds.

 

[sanders]

If you are ever at Chicago O'hare, take a minute to check out the display of the F4F-3 they pulled out of Lake Michigan. Apparently it went down during a training exercise back in the 40's or 50's.

 

[C420sailor]

There are a lot of old warbirds sitting on the seabed. Supposedly one crashed in a Long Island harbor back in WWII on its first flight and there were no records of it being recovered. My brother-in-law and I tried to find it, but to no avail. At least we got some good diving out of it!

 

[Owen]

Aircraft recovery

In general snail mail letters are preferred. Address them to:

Mr. Buddy Macon
National Naval Aviation Museum
1750 Radford Blvd., Suite C
Pensacola, FL 32508

 

[Bevo16]

As long as there are no remains on board, the recovery should be pretty cut and dry. It's just a diving operation at that point. Hopefully the museum gets a good piece out of it.

 

[desertoasis]

As long as there are no remains on board...

How often does that happen?

 

[Bevo16]

In the United States, not very often. World wide, there are hundreds of Naval aircraft in deep water that are classified as maritime grave sites. These are the results of both combat action and of regular mishaps.

In the event that these aircraft are discovered, the Navy in conjunction with JPAC makes a determination on if they are going to recover remains or designate the site as a maritime grave site. The depth of the water is normally the deciding factor, but the possibility of the remains being disturbed is also considered.

It is not uncommon (it happens a few times a year, especially in the south Pacific) where an aircraft with remains is discovered either by a hiker or a bunch of tourists on a dive. A Marine F-4 (WWII) was found about a year ago by an Aussie cop who was diving on vacation. He was brought to the wreak by a dive guide who knew about it. The cop found remains at the aircraft (that was still in really good shape, air was still in the tires) and did not know what to do. He ended up recovering the remains (and getting the skull back from a local bar) and he contacted JPAC. He turned the remains over, and JPAC went out and made an additional recovery.

For current day mishaps, every effort is made to recover remains and aircraft but it is not always possible. I would like to say that we get everyone back, but we don't.

 

[Gatordev]

For current day mishaps, every effort is made to recover remains and aircraft but it is not always possible. I would like to say that we get everyone back, but we don't.

I'm curious to hear the other side of this... In ASO school, they talked about how a salvage mission would not be approved if the reason was to recover remains, only to determine the cause of a mishap. Do you see a more gray area of this on your side?

 

[Bevo16]

In ASO school, they talked about how a salvage mission would not be approved if the reason was to recover remains, only to determine the cause of a mishap.

Yea, that's not true at all. We recover remains all the time from aircraft that we know exactly why they went down.

The folks at ASO school know a lot about mishaps, but I would venture to guess that they are not up to speed on the minutia regarding remains recovery. The folks at the OPNAV POW/MIA office, DPMO, and JPAC work that out, and the Safety Center is not even in the loop.

Many factors are considered, including:

1. Depth of water
2. Probability that remains will be recovered.
3. Probability that remains will be disturbed by 3rd parties if not recovered by the Navy
4. If any remains have already been recovered. (you are not going diving for an arm when you have an intact torso already recovered).
5. Who is calling Congress.
6. How persistent the family is.
7. Cost.

The last 3 are the most frustrating variables that we have to deal with. When it goes on long enough, you get situations like this:

George 1

Or this:

LA-9

 

[phrogpilot73]

In ASO school, they talked about how a salvage mission would not be approved if the reason was to recover remains, only to determine the cause of a mishap.

I'm guessing that when they were discussing it, that WE couldn't request a salvage mission to recover remains (i.e. to get our squadronmate back), but I was pretty certain that other agencies could do it.

 

[Gatordev]

The folks at ASO school know a lot about mishaps, but I would venture to guess that they are not up to speed on the minutia regarding remains recovery.

No doubt.

I'm guessing that when they were discussing it, that WE couldn't request a salvage mission to recover remains (i.e. to get our squadronmate back), but I was pretty certain that other agencies could do it.

That's a good point. That's probably what they said, but by that time I had reached full antipathy.