Airline question

[whitesoxnation]

I just sat through a presentation done by one of the recruiters from ASA. He was a good guy and I appreciated him coming to our class.

The whole time he was saying that there was a pilot shortage before the downturn, and that whenever the economy turns around, that there will be another pilot shortage, how they cant fill their classes, etc.

So I asked him if there was a pilot shortage, then why are new FOs getting payed so little and pay is getting cut all over the place? He said it was because they had to stay cost competitive with other carriers, then my teach interrupted and said that "just because you start offering $35/hour for a new hire doesnt mean you'll fill classes." I felt like she was getting pissed so I shut my mouth.

I was going to say that if there was a food shortage, then either I wouldnt be eating or I would be eating this chicken and bacon ranch from subway for $15 not $5... then why has the $ value of their pilots not changed? Obviously the airline is still flying (eating) yet their crew cost is still the same (if not less). Then I was going to ask him if he thought that students coming out college flight schools cheapen the profession by saying that they will work for $18/hr just so they can fly a jet.

Is this true? There is no such thing as a pilot shortage, just what airlines want you to believe so more people pursue the career giving them a bigger and cheaper supply of pilots... and students coming out of collegiate programs cheapen the profession?

 

[navy09]

Huh?

 

[HAL Pilot]

There is no shortage of pilots. You might argue that there is a shortage of experienced pilots as they were recently taking guys with 500 total / 50 multi into some airlines like Mesa.

And in my opinion, yes the people coming out of the aviation schools and accepting $20-$25/hr pay are cheapening the profession. If there was a shortage of entry level pilots, they could demand a higher salary and the regionals would have to pay.

Your instructor was full of shit and just trying to keep the ASA guy from looking bad. Your school needs to cooperate with the regional airlines to keep all the young naive people with SJS (shiny jet syndrome) coming in the doors and paying the big tuition/fees.

 

[Krafty1]

Ask the guys on furlough if there is a pilot shortage. Maybe I'll ask my former flight instructors sitting on reserve with (insert carrier here). I don't mean to be sarcastic but people like that want you to believe there is a pilot shortage so young people (like myself) will continue to pay for their own flight training and they, part 121/119/135 operators, will not have to pay for their pilots initial training (ie through Commercial Cert. with Instr. rating). If you have not heard of www.airlinepilotcentral.com check it out. That site has some great threads and will help you understand why some senior pilots get downright furious at the idea of a pilot flying for free or PAYING for their own FO job.

Personally I've been searching for an active CFI job for almost a year now. The one place I was fortunate to interview with is now laying off CFI's when a year and a half ago they couldn't keep them around they were leaving for the airlines so fast. This a major part 141 university too. The only reason I mention this is the lay offs were not due to an overabundance of instructors, but rather a drastic decrease in the number of students. I can think of two other well-known flight schools that also had layoffs for the same reason. I think in another 4-5 years we may have another "shortage" of qualified pilots but who knows.

 

[rrpilot]

I agree with HAL Pilot, they definitely like to keep those tuition's coming, I'm a private pilot who's thought about going commercial a couple of times and been talked out of it by friends who are comm. pilots. It seems basically the pay sucks at least for a long time...with regional carriers paying First Officers somewhere around $25K a year...Guess if I'm gonna have a crappy schedule I'll stay on the RR and fly for fun since I think I'm too old to start existing solely on ramen noodles...

 

[HAL Pilot]

I don't mean to be sarcastic but people like that want you to believe there is a pilot shortage so young people (like myself) will continue to pay for their own flight training and they, part 121/119/135 operators, will not have to pay for their pilots initial training (ie through Commercial Cert. with Instr. rating). If you have not heard of www.airlinepilotcentral.com check it out. That site has some great threads and will help you understand why some senior pilots get downright furious at the idea of a pilot flying for free or PAYING for their own FO job.

Paying for your own flight training through commercial, multi-engine, instrument and instructor ratings is how it has always been and always will be. That's like getting your degree - it's the basic qualifications. The problem is companies that require you to pay for type ratings or your company specific training. This is what the whole PFT (pay for training) debacle is about. Thankfully, PFT is mostly gone from the airlines but it is still around in corporate flying.

BTW in my opinion, airlinepilotcentral.com is full of idiots. If you have a commercial licenses and are willing to pay $10/year, got to propilotworld.com to ask your questions. You will get a lot more useful info.

 

[Krafty1]

Very true, but that made me remember a very good point. There is a GLOBAL pilot shortage. That much is a reality. The Chinese and Indian governments both fund programs for nationals to come the US and learn to fly.

 

[HackerF15E]

There's a shortage of pilots who will work for $hit wages.

Fortunately.

 

[HAL Pilot]

There's a shortage of pilots who will work for $hit wages.

Fortunately.

No there's not....just look at the pilots at any region airline.

And that is the problem. The pay will not get better until pilots refuse to take the jobs with shitty pay.

 

[bert]

No there's not....just look at the pilots at any region airline.

And that is the problem. The pay will not get better until pilots refuse to take the jobs with shitty pay.

They aren't going to refuse those regional FO jobs because they think it can lead them to the good life as a captain at a major some day. (I assume that must be at least perceived as a realistic opportunity or they wouldn't be eating that turd from the regionals).

 

[Moc1Sig]

You have to really just want some stripes on your shoulders and and wings on your chest to sign with any regionals right now. My old instructor took a pay cut, with much crappier hours to get in the right seat of a 200 and out of a 172. I mean even with the majors there is so much BS, my dad is with USair and with their first contract with Amer.west a guy with like 16 months was senior to my dad with 25 years and now his is still on reserve. His pay is almost half of what it was when i was born. Alot of it has to do with the corporate shit heads and their dishonest conflicting interest on management and ALPA is doing much to help out.

My dad still loves what he does the actual flying, but deff. not a career to go into with your hopes high. It is still a career path I would consider much later in life, but those are just some broad scale negatives I have experienced

 

[Makk85]

Pilot shortage? Short answer: Hell No! There is always a pilot willing to do your job for less than you just to get flight time.

Long answer: Commercial aviation and the airlines are in the shitter in the United States, no doubt about it. In fact, according to Warren Buffet, in all of the years the aviation industry has been around it is only worth about 20% of all that was put into it. There have been some smart people who have made money in the short term, but over-all the aviation industry is drying out. Pilots always get to feel that pinch the worst. We are a huge expense. If you love to fly, want to make a career of it with a reliable income and maybe even retire someday, then join the military or move to Dubai. Don't believe the flight school's "were in a cycle" BS. Flight schools admitting that the commercial aviation industry is becoming more and more problematic is like Marlboro admitting that smoking is harmful to your health.

As for civilian pilot wages, get ready for a catch 22. By accepting low wages you screw all other pilots, but demand what you are worth and they will find someone else to fill your shoes.

It is still possible to work your way up the ladder in the civilian world, just be prepared to get kicked down a few times on your climb.

 

[LazersGoPEWPEW]

That ASA guy said that because he was probably referring to his own airline.

There is more than one reason why ASA = Atlanta's Shittiest Airline.