APKWS Hits the Fleet

[SynixMan]

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/04/apkws-afghanistan/#more-78548

A decade later, fielding them from Cobras and Hueys in Afghanistan. Supposed sticker of only $10k per, vice $100k per Hellfire, and smaller targets. Not sure of any plans to bring this to the -60, but a good capability to add for the Marines at least.

 

[fc2spyguy]

So, we take an ill tempered bottle rocket,the hellfire, and reduce it's capacity to blow shit up even further? I find it funny that someone says the hellfire delivers "way too much bang". . .

 

[Jim123]

So, we take an ill tempered bottle rocket,the hellfire, and reduce it's capacity to blow shit up even further? I find it funny that someone says the hellfire delivers "way too much bang". . .

 

[Lawman]

How much loss to range and warhead did they end up with I wonder?

Mk66 motors only carry that little thing so far, and the existing ten pound warhead on the M151 is more show than effect especially in soft sand or uneven terrain.

I fear you've given upper echelon ground commanders a new way to overly restrict aircrews from giving effective fires because suddenly Hellfire will require umpteen miles of red tape as its no longer our smallest precision warhead.

 

[helolumpy]

After seeing some of the markmanship with the Hellfire, maybe the Navy needs to have more missiles available per aircraft. (I'm by no means an expert by wikipedia says it comes in a 7 shot pod) than the 4 Hellfire we can currently carry.

For overland, I can see it being useful since it may allow you to investigate the scene after an engagment and find something, unlike that carnage left behind from the Hellfire.

 

[Lawman]

After seeing some of the markmanship with the Hellfire, maybe the Navy needs to have more missiles available per aircraft. (I'm by no means an expert by wikipedia says it comes in a 7 shot pod) than the 4 Hellfire we can currently carry.

For overland, I can see it being useful since it may allow you to investigate the scene after an engagment and find something, unlike that carnage left behind from the Hellfire.

The only reason K model hellfires are effective on open area targets is the blast frag sleeve around that "massive" warhead. Otherwise it will just dig a deep hole with the shape charge. This doesnt even have any kind of frag sleeve and the wound and kill radius on the M151 is very deceptive as it only stretches that far on flat dense terrain at the 2 and 10 oclock positions. You can't tell me that this rocket is gonna be some kind of Wonder weapon that should replace the most effective air to ground missile in the inventory for this fight. It's just a good way of limiting the loss in effectiveness of rockets due to por pilot technique, it should not be looked at as a replacement for Hellfire, though on the plus side maybe the kiowas can actually hit something now.

As far as marksmanship that sounds more like crew proficiency and technique issues. If I remember the conversation I had with gator on this you guys are shooting at boats using IAT? If so that's your first problem. Nobody in attack aviation uses IAT, it's a crutch and it doesn't work as well as a good thumb and manual track.

 

[insanebikerboy]

After seeing some of the markmanship with the Hellfire

I wonder, did the marksmanship involve the 25 year old missiles they give you to "practice" with?

Combine that with how little the Navy lets helo bubbas shoot the hellfire, no wonder it's poor.

 

[Gatordev]

As far as marksmanship that sounds more like crew proficiency and technique issues. If I remember the conversation I had with gator on this you guys are shooting at boats using IAT? If so that's your first problem. Nobody in attack aviation uses IAT, it's a crutch and it doesn't work as well as a good thumb and manual track.

I believe what I said was (or meant to say, anyway) is that it's part of how the Navy shoots, but it's not an inhibit from shooting. If it doesn't lock, you can still free-ball it and take the shot. The -60B AVT was very solid, even in the Pacific winter sea states. The S/R has other issues, but you can still make it happen with RATE mode and some gentle stroking with your thumb...and practice.

A far more pressing issue for accuracy on the Navy side is the fact that you hardly get to shoot one in a career, which is a whole other issue.

 

[Lawman]

I wonder, did the marksmanship involve the 25 year old missiles they give you to "practice" with?

Combine that with how little the Navy lets helo bubbas shoot the hellfire, no wonder it's poor.

If you shot a Charlie model just hitting the Earth would be considered a good shot.

Gator you guys gotta change that method. We have the same problem with the new edge tracker in the MTADS. With the old legacy FLIR auto track worked but that was because you could overdrive contrast and brightness on the FLIR and make the hotspot the only blob for it to see. MTADS is an edge tracker which works if your not moving and they aren't either but soon as the picture changes it drops the track. That's the key reason we don't shoot that way, you need so many seconds of constant laser on target range dependent so if you had it break lock with the missile in flight now it could end up all sorts of places depending on where it jumps too.

 

[Gatordev]

Gator you guys gotta change that method.

I don't have to do anything. We'd have to actually shoot at something in anger before any of this would matter. Besides, I don't have a patch, so any valuable experience I might have doesn't stack up to the patch.

We have the same problem with the new edge tracker in the MTADS. With the old legacy FLIR auto track worked but that was because you could overdrive contrast and brightness on the FLIR and make the hotspot the only blob for it to see. MTADS is an edge tracker which works if your not moving and they aren't either but soon as the picture changes it drops the track. That's the key reason we don't shoot that way, you need so many seconds of constant laser on target range dependent so if you had it break lock with the missile in flight now it could end up all sorts of places depending on where it jumps too.

Without getting too far into the weeds, the S/R has multiple track modes (edge is only one of them). I haven't played with it very much in the actual aircraft, but if you actually go through the different modes and find what works best, it can help hold lock.

 

[RobLyman]

... Besides, I don't have a patch, so any valuable experience I might have doesn't stack up to the patch.

Not to worry Whitely Duvall, a Sea Service Ribbon + Air Medal = Patch. You're good to go!

A wont a you a dance wit me at the annual all star a banquet
A will a feel so fancy free at the annual all star a banquet
Everyone in town will be lookin their best,
Even Mrs. Selman with the one extra breast.
Its a kind of a nite when ur feet match
When u feel nearly 5 foot 3!
They'll laugh and they'll dance and they'll pee in their pants
Cuz there's a patch at the all star a banquet waiting for me!
I never shot a Hellfire when I flew the 60B either.

 

[Pags]

So, we take an ill tempered bottle rocket,the hellfire, and reduce it's capacity to blow shit up even further? I find it funny that someone says the hellfire delivers "way too much bang". . .

When you want to minimize collateral damage, then yes, the hellfire can be too much.

 

[busdriver]

Can a single 2.75 kill the drivers of a truck if it hits the cab? I don't have to kill the bad guys to make a CSAR happen, I just have to build enough time to get the isolated people I'm there to pickup. After I get the good guys, I'll happily hike up my skirt and run the fuck away.

 

[RotorHead04]

APKWS coming to -60S ... yah ... so is M197.

Quite frankly, I would rather have this http://www.military.com/video/guns/...us-navy-wants-apache-firepower/1567397223001/ and some Hydras if I have to go hunt little boats. The Navy can't possibly afford proficiency, so IMHO the next best thing is to buy most accurate/simple.

 

[helolumpy]

APKWS coming to -60S ... yah ... so is M197.

Quite frankly, I would rather have this http://www.military.com/video/guns/...us-navy-wants-apache-firepower/1567397223001/ and some Hydras if I have to go hunt little boats. The Navy can't possibly afford proficiency, so IMHO the next best thing is to buy most accurate/simple.

Why not the GAU-16? It's proven technology and flight rated for the 60H. The HCS squadrons have used them effectively for a number of years and IMO would be the best weapon for the "swarm tactic".
It uses ammo that we already stock (granted, it uses A LOT of ammo) so other than storing more, it shouldn't impact the ships armory as much as having to carry an additional type of ammo.

It is also effective for keeping someone else's head down in a non-permissive environment and will allow our crewman to "miss" with the first couple of hundred rounds, but can walk it in to get the next thousand on target....