Aviation Warfare Transition

[TrashMan]

Howdy,

Long time lurker, first time poster. I just made HAC in the HSM world with about 15 months out until PRD. The warfare transition has always been an option in the back of my mind. I was wondering if the AW community could answer some questions or point me in the right direction. I understand this question gets asked about once every two years or so but I feel I’ve read everything there is to read and am looking for some more recent information pertaining to my questions below…

1-What are the career implications of a transitions? I understand 2-3 years of NOB fitreps would essentially make anyone ineligible for command. Other than that how limited are shore tour options? It seems manning plays a lot into that.

2-Community integration. One of the bigger shocks other than learning an entirely new platform would be integrating into a new community and the culture that comes with it. Based off anecdotes on air warriors it seems the VFA community is less than friendly to those who transitioned rather than those who were born & bred. It would seem to me this is more unique to the personality of an individual.

3-Is the grass really greener? Though I love flying 60s and the HSM community, being the tip of the spear of carrier air wing is ultimately what I joined the Navy to do. The most significant push factor from HSM is that flying is subordinate to your ground job and tactical proficiency is seen more as a hobby for individuals to pursue rather than a squadron priority (though this is changing). Is this any different in the Tailhook community? I’m sure there are always aversions that are unique to every community.

Anyway, I hope these questions weren’t too vague and any input or advice would be greatly appreciated. If you could direct me to other resources that would be greatly appreciated as well. DMs are also appreciated.

TM

 

[ea6bflyr]

Howdy,

Long time lurker, first time poster. I just made HAC in the HSM world with about 15 months out until PRD. The warfare transition has always been an option in the back of my mind. I was wondering if the AW community could answer some questions or point me in the right direction. I understand this question gets asked about once every two years or so but I feel I’ve read everything there is to read and am looking for some more recent information pertaining to my questions below…

1-What are the career implications of a transitions? I understand 2-3 years of NOB fitreps would essentially make anyone ineligible for command. Other than that how limited are shore tour options? It seems manning plays a lot into that.

2-Community integration. One of the bigger shocks other than learning an entirely new platform would be integrating into a new community and the culture that comes with it. Based off anecdotes on air warriors it seems the VFA community is less than friendly to those who transitioned rather than those who were born & bred. It would seem to me this is more unique to the personality of an individual.

3-Is the grass really greener? Though I love flying 60s and the HSM community, being the tip of the spear of carrier air wing is ultimately what I joined the Navy to do. The most significant push factor from HSM is that flying is subordinate to your ground job and tactical proficiency is seen more as a hobby for individuals to pursue rather than a squadron priority (though this is changing). Is this any different in the Tailhook community? I’m sure there are always aversions that are unique to every community.

Anyway, I hope these questions weren’t too vague and any input or advice would be greatly appreciated. If you could direct me to other resources that would be greatly appreciated as well. DMs are also appreciated.

TM

Depends on how strong your high water FITREP can carry you. You’ve got to be a #1 competitive EP (not 1 of 1) to survive the transition and still make rank after long period of NOB FITREPS.

One of my squadron pilots in the EA-6B was a former H-46 pilot. He made it to O-5, but not command. A former member at AW transitioned from the SH-60 to E-2s and never made it passed O-3….2xFOS’d, went reserves and retired as an O-4.

I do not know of anyone that transitioned that made command, but I think the odds are against most that transition.

Once complete with the transition, you’ll be rolling into a squadron as a Super-JO with a very steep learning curve while competing for a competitive FITREP.

Good luck with your decision and career.

 

[MGoBrew11]

There are definitely people that have made command after a transition. CAPT Crozier was helo to fighter I believe. It definitely makes it harder though.

OP I think the battle you most need to focus on is getting released from HSM. The only names I’ve seen the last few years that picked up the transition from helos were HSC guys. I think HSM has been holding onto people pretty tight.

 

[TrashMan]

Depends on how strong your high water FITREP can carry you. You’ve got to be a #1 competitive EP (not 1 of 1) to survive the transition and still make rank after long period of NOB FITREPS.

One of my squadron pilots in the EA-6B was a former H-46 pilot. He made it to O-5, but not command. A former member at AW transitioned from the SH-60 to E-2s and never made it passed O-3….2xFOS’d, went reserves and retired as an O-4.

I do not know of anyone that transitioned that made command, but I think the odds are against most that transition.

Once complete with the transition, you’ll be rolling into a squadron as a Super-JO with a very steep learning curve while competing for a competitive FITREP.

Good luck with your decision and career.

Thanks for the information. I guess the question is *do* I want to make command someday.

 

[FLGUY]

Depends on how strong your high water FITREP can carry you. You’ve got to be a #1 competitive EP (not 1 of 1) to survive the transition and still make rank after long period of NOB FITREPS.

One of my squadron pilots in the EA-6B was a former H-46 pilot. He made it to O-5, but not command. A former member at AW transitioned from the SH-60 to E-2s and never made it passed O-3….2xFOS’d, went reserves and retired as an O-4.

I do not know of anyone that transitioned that made command, but I think the odds are against most that transition.

Once complete with the transition, you’ll be rolling into a squadron as a Super-JO with a very steep learning curve while competing for a competitive FITREP.

Good luck with your decision and career.

To be clear, are you saying that those without a #1 EP going into a warfare transition are not likely to make O-4 or make O-5? The consensus I’ve seen/heard about is those who express interest in a transition usually get knocked down a few pegs on the fitrep ladder, and #1 EPs are usually too valuable to lose to another community.

Or are you saying that those who want a slim chance at command specifically must have a #1 EP to survive the NOBs?

 

[TrashMan]

This was my impression as well…

 

[MGoBrew11]

Timing is everything, as always. Some of the examples above were guys that went through this 20 years ago.

In today’s Navy, if you get a #1 EP in your first sea tour, I think you will be just fine for O-4. I wouldn’t worry too much about O-5 either....not because of your first tour #1 EP but because if you stick around for O-4/DH, you’ll likely at least make O-5. Command is tougher but it’s really a crap shoot in whatever your current community is too at this stage in your career.

You are correct about the potential for getting “dinged” on your high water for expressing interest in the transition. That’s why it’s important to hold your cards close to your chest and again, timing is everything. If the timing of the board is such that you can get your highwater, then apply, all the better for you. If not, yeah it might affect you.

Keep in mind on the flip side if you don’t disclose you are interested in the transition, get a #1 EP and then tell your front office....they may be a bit unhappy with you.

 

[MGoBrew11]

Also, as far as #1 EPs being “too valuable” to lose...eh. There are 1-2 #1 EPs in each fleet squadron every year. The better your ranking, the more likely another community is to take you. But as I alluded to in my first post, your community has to release you as well. If their quota is 0 for the year, you’re going nowhere.

EDIT: Honestly the number of people who have done this is so few, your best bet is probably to just reach out to the Aviation Warfare Transition folks at PERS. I know that sounds scary and people think they might get “tattled” on, but I don’t think that’s true. The transition office is designed to answer these questions so it is not in their interest to rat people out to their communities.

 

[ea6bflyr]

To be clear, are you saying that those without a #1 EP going into a warfare transition are not likely to make O-4 or make O-5? The consensus I’ve seen/heard about is those who express interest in a transition usually get knocked down a few pegs on the fitrep ladder, and #1 EPs are usually too valuable to lose to another community.

Or are you saying that those who want a slim chance at command specifically must have a #1 EP to survive the NOBs?

@MGoBrew11 said it better. My examples are of 1 person that survived the transition and made O-5 with strong papers, and the other that was set up for failure due to getting the transition with weak papers. Command is enough of a crap shoot without a transition. Luck and timing….

 

[SynixMan]

I think in today's environment with a lot of folks leaving, you don't need a #1 EP to survive. In years past it was a bigger deal, but now with any 1310 with a pulse are making O-4, that's probably less of a consideration. Just solid paper from your sea tour. The DH Board is internal to aviation and should understand what's been invested in a Warfare Transition.

The folks I knew who did it, did it from their shore tour. They didn't want to tip their hand to their fleet CO, which I get. One is finishing VTs take two and the other is at VAQ-129. The hardest part is that they'll do a Super JO tour effectively and then roll straight into a DH ride (so back to back sea tours). The learning curve in the jet will be steep, but also on the ground job front, and your peers will be coming without the baggage. Hopefully you were at least a HSM CVW guy and know your way around an air wing.

Keep grinding where you are, take stock of everything, look at longer term goals post Navy, and set your course from there.

 

[Frodo Baggins]

Hey everyone! I've seen a lot of these threads about the warfare transition board and figured I'd put together something about my experience going through the process. I applied twice to the board and got selected on my second attempt. That being said, up front disclaimer that this was my personal experience and yours may vary. If your career timing is vastly different than mine, I recommend you talk to the board POC or your own personal detailing officer to get the most up-to-date advice.

I winged out of multi-engine advanced in September 2018. Finished the FRS mid-2019 and did the normal 36 months at my first sea tour. After I qualified in the P-8, I expressed an interest with my CO to possibly apply to the transition board. He was supportive but did tell me it would play a role in my high water FITREP ranking. I ended up applying before I left the squadron for a transition to VFA/VAQ but didn't get picked up. For what it's worth, I left my shore tour with an EP. I made MC and IP while I was there and had about 950 hours total time and 500 hours as aircraft commander.

I reported to my shore tour and applied again. This was a little awkward due to my timing because I essentially applied to the board while enroute PCSing and then had to tell my new command in the check-in interview. They were supportive, luckily. I applied again for VFA/VAQ and got picked up for VFA.

As for career timing, I will screen for O-4 in 2026 and 2027. However, I'm creeping forward and will probably be in-zone to screen in 2025 and 2026 with my DH look in 2026. This means I could screen and select O-4 while in the VFA FRS and report to my first jet squadron as an O-4. It also means I could screen for DH my first year in my new squadron. If your career timing was delayed at all already, you'll be even further behind.

I've known several guys to pick up the transition specifically from MPRA. One was a level 300 who hadn't made MC yet and several were MC but not IP. I was an IP. The biggest factor in the board seems to be career timing. Assuming your community will release you and your gaining community needs you, I'm told they assume everyone applying to the board can fly a plane. For this reason, I was advised to have all my recommendations specifically mention my abilities to perform at an O-4 operational department head level which is what I focused on. I wrote very little about my flying performance in my letters of recommendation.

One last piece of advice. While I recommend being open with your XO and CO about your desires, it's a very fine line. When I first checked into my command, my only thought was upgrading. I had an idea that I would want to apply eventually but I also knew that was 3 years down the line. I didn't tell anyone about my desire to transfer for 24 months. In that time, I qualified and put on mission commander and instructor. When I was ready to have the conversations, I started with a trusted O-4 and told him in confidence. I got his perspective and I asked him how he thought the front office would take the news. Luckily, I was very fortunate and all of my Skippers and XO's were very supportive of everyone who wanted to transfer or apply to other programs, such as test. I made the decision to tell my Skipper I wanted to formally apply prior to my high water being signed because I wanted to be up front and honest with him. It may have effected my breakout number slightly but he wrote me a really solid recommendation in return. I could've waited and hid it in an attempt to get a higher ranking, but I have no idea how a Skipper would react if he gave you his #1 EP and then in the debrief you tell him you want to punch out of the community. Your experience will be unique but, if able, I recommend keeping a good working relationship with your XO and CO because they will ultimately be writing your endorsement to the board. Don't piss them off by hiding your intentions.

Good luck! And keep applying if you want it. My career timing is jacked and it will be harder to upgrade as an O-4 "new guy", but I get to spend my entire career in the Navy flying planes and working with great people. I'll take that tradeoff.

 

[Brett327]

This is about as sensible an approach to platform transition as I've seen. Best of luck with your training. A lot of it will be very different than what you're used to, but that is probably among the reasons you wanted a change. I've seen plenty of transition guys, including RW, thrive in TACAIR, though catching up to your peers from an ACTC perspective brings its own challenges. You may have <2 years as a super JO, so your goal should be to leave as a Level 3 at a minimum. Grab every qual you're ready for (NATOPS I, FCF, NVG instructor, etc), but prioritize ACTC.

Congrats, and best of luck!

 

[blackbeard]

Does anyone have an idea of how long it usually takes for the results to come out after the board convenes?

 

[suh_dude]

The previous board was held 06DEC; results were available online morning of 13DEC.

 

[millalex]

Adding another data point since the info on this forum helped me through the process. I am a P-8A WTI that got selected for a VFA transition. I’ll share my background and insight to help those considering a Warfare Transition, as well as the questions I asked PERS.

I selected Maritime out of Primary as my #2 choice. Got my wings October 2018 and finished the P-8A FRS at the end of 2019. Not long after selection transition to Jets entered the back of my mind, but since I knew I was already lucky enough to be flying naval aircraft I compartmentalized it through every stage of upgrading (Advanced, FRS, Squadron) and would make an assessment after each qualification I earned to consider whether it was still something I wanted to do. This happened to be the case and I ended up applying at (what felt like) the last possible opportunity in my career.

During my second deployment, and over a year after qualifying as a P-8 Instructor Pilot, I again felt the desire to submit a transition package. Instead I got the opportunity to attend the Maritime WTI course while I was still in the squadron so I elected for that route. I left deployment early and while getting ready to start the course I got my shore tour assignment. It was not what I was hoping for, but I decided to give it a fair shake as it may have been a blessing in disguise (read: bloom where you’re planted). I qualified as a WTI and went back to my squadron for a few months to instruct before checking out at the beginning of 2023.

The transition bug was biting again, but I felt like I couldn’t ask for an endorsement from my new Skipper until I had contributed to my new command. So I boxed it up again for a few months until effectively the last possible moment (a week before the package was due). I wrote my application letter and drafted an endorsement for the Skipper and went to bring up my desires to the XO— this is where I would have done it differently.

Almost all the feedback I got from different senior officers was that they wished I had brought up my desires earlier so they could help me with my package. Absolutely no one during the process faulted me for wanting to apply and many encouraged it. Your experience may vary, but I believe there is a culture shift in leadership to encourage/accept “off the golden path” career options rather than the “everyone needs to be CNO” mentality (at least in MPRA).

Ultimately my front office was supportive, the boss signed the endorsement, and I got picked up on my first board for VFA. My listed preference was VAQ (Primary) and VFA (Secondary). For what it’s worth I had an LOR from a VAQ O-6 as a part of my package. I was nearly 50/50 on VAQ/VFA so it worked out. I just wanna go fast.

I asked several questions of the board coordinator (who was extremely helpful) prior to submitting the application:

1. What are the main qualities you look for in an applicant?
   • Performance (FITREP), Career Timing which plays into transition timing
2. Are letters of recommendation beyond CO's endorsement accepted/considered important?
   • LOR are accepted and reviewed by the board, those that submit without LOR are not penalized
3. Are the PERS reps from each community the ones that determine acceptable gain/loss?
   • The members of PERS from each community are on the board. However the gain/loss comes from the Aviation Officer Community Manager and individual community needs
4. Can you share stats of those who applied vs those who are selected?
   • I believe the stats would lead you to those with the best paperwork, timing, and transferring community availability will be the ones typically picked.
5. How many total applicants apply each board?
   • Varies each board
6. Have people been “held back” by their losing community?
   • I have not seen the board hold anyone back because they were too good to let go. I would say those that don’t get picked up fall into one of few things. No availability in the requested community, career timing with the transition does not work out, or competitiveness and timing amongst applicants.

Additionally, I asked if LOR were required at the time of submission or if they could be added later. Referencing the transition message I was told that only the statement and CO endorsement were required by application due date, and any LOR (or "supporting documentation") could be added up to one day prior to the board as long as you kept the board coordinator in the loop.

I found out the results first on the MyNavyHR PERS page, simply refreshing the page the following week. I got an email from the board coordinator the next day. From there it was simply working with both my current detailer, new community detailer and the flight school placement officer to work orders.

Overall the process is relatively simple and the requirements of the application should be taken at face value. I asked why I was picked for VFA over VAQ and was told that the conduct of the board could not be divulged. So unless you’ve sat on the board before, any rational for what makes a good candidate beyond what’s listed on the requirements of the message is just a guess. I hope this helps and happy to help anyone else that’s interested. I couldn’t be more excited and thankful for the opportunity to keep flying!