Ban on Cluster Munitions

[usmarinemike]

What is the general opinion on this.

- Over 100 countries signed the treaty to destroy their cluster munitions.
- United States, Russia, China, and Isreal weren't present.
- Apparently there is another conference in June in Geneva for the "grown-ups."


It seems to me like cluster munitions are a highly effective weapon. It seems to have out really well with JSOW. My question, instead of making promises to not use a weapon that is clearly important (and apparently having tickle fights instead), why can't there just be a product made that self-destructs? It worked for FASCAM. We can just make the self destruct mechanism take effect immediately after deployment rather than days.

How many bigger bomb units don't detonate when dropped? I would imagine that those are just as dangerous especially in an urban area where everybody is acting stupid, albeit a little less stealthy to farmers' feet.

 

[nittany03]

I think the problem is partly that those self-destruct mechanisms don't always work. It's like land mines. Human rights groups hate both due to the greater than average chance of leaving a bunch of UXO around after the war.

 

[Flash]

How many bigger bomb units don't detonate when dropped? I would imagine that those are just as dangerous especially in an urban area where everybody is acting stupid, albeit a little less stealthy to farmers' feet.

I think the problem is partly that those self-destruct mechanisms don't always work. It's like land mines. Human rights groups hate both due to the greater than average chance of leaving a bunch of UXO around after the war.

The issue many have with cluster munitions is that there are exponentially more of them than the bigger ordnance, and much smaller.

I think the US is going the right way with this, we have restrained our use of them recently but we need to have the capability in our arsenal, they are an effective weapon used at the right time and place.

 

[FLYTPAY]

The reason cluster munitions are used with extreme discretion is the dud-rate. Also, ironically, an unexploded MK-20 bomblet looks like a toy....not good if there are children around after the war. When a cluster munition is dropped, the duds are essentially unplanned mines, indiscriminite weapons that will kill whomever/whatever triggers their detonation. They are an effective and important weapon and thus their continued use should not be voluntarily outlawed.

 

[armada1651]

Humanitarian aid package vs. cluster bomb UXO

 

[armada1651]

Since then, I believe they've changed the color of one or the other. But, as mentioned, cluster bombs can often be confused with toys or food packages or something else. Nobody's going to think a 1000lb bomb is anything other than a 1000lb bomb - not the case with cluster bomblets. Also, the bomblet dud rate has been found to be as high as 20% in practice, although by design it's supposed to be no more than 5%.

 

[Mumbles]

Would this include any missile/bomb with submunitions?? I'm thinking TLAM, JSOW, SFM, WCMD, specifically. If the jet guys wanna pipe in that would be great....I remember when the CBU-97 sensor fused munition came out that the AF was claiming that a pair of F-16s with 4 SFWs a piece could take out most of an armored brigade.

 

[Bevo16]

Every cluster munition is already loaded with a self destruct mechanism. Pretty much every bomb ever created has a self destruct mechanism. A bomb, isn't really a bomb if it does not have some device to make it go boom (self destruction along with the area in proximity to the bomb is usually the goal).

Some of these mechanisms work, some don't. When it does not work, you get a dud.

Do you want redundant detonators? The answer to that is easy: cost.

Sorry to sound snippy. Maybe I just don't get the question.

 

[East]

Clusterfvck

Although our ISAF Apache pilots are thinking different, Dutch policymakers banned the cluster ammo and signed the treaty. Let's hope they sleep well at night now....:sleep_125

 

[FLYTPAY]

Every cluster munition is already loaded with a self destruct mechanism. Pretty much every bomb ever created has a self destruct mechanism. A bomb, isn't really a bomb if it does not have some device to make it go boom (self destruction along with the area in proximity to the bomb is usually the goal).

Some of these mechanisms work, some don't. When it does not work, you get a dud.

They are called "fuzes" and come in many flavors.

Do you want redundant detonators? The answer to that is easy: cost.

Said with the expertise of someone who has dropped many bombs

 

[jarhead]

CBU's are badass. There's supposedly only two ranges in the US approved for CBU's though I only know of one, in the R2507. I've dropped six at one time into the "rockeye pit" ... unbelievable sight. They can f' up some shit, no doubt. Keep'em ... but be ready to clean up the mess at the end of the conflict. Also you must be careful where you drop them if you want friendly troops to move through the area later on.

Here's a decent video of one exploding for those who's never seen them in action (It will say "video no longer available" but click on link at top of video and it should work - guess I'm a YouTube retard) ...

 

[Lawman]

Is it just me or is anybody else remembering the scene from "Three Kings" with the Cow.

Ok found it for those who havent seen the movie.

 

[lmnop]

Also, the bomblet dud rate has been found to be as high as 20% in practice, although by design it's supposed to be no more than 5%.

There are countless varieties of submunitions out there, and equally varied dud rates. Not sure where you're getting your numbers from.

 

[armada1651]

There are countless varieties of submunitions out there, and equally varied dud rates. Not sure where you're getting your numbers from.

That's true. Sorry for not being more clear. I can't remember exactly where that particular statistic came from - I just know I used it in a report on cluster munitions a few years ago. However, Human Rights Watch says the failure rate of M77 submunitions launched from MLRS units is in the range of 16-23%. M42 and M46 submunitions used in 155mm artillery rounds are slightly lower at 14%. This comes from: http://hrw.org/english/docs/2003/03/18/usint5409.htm

I want to say the 20% figure was referring to an early version of the CBU-99, but I'm not sure and can't find it right now.

 

[scoober78]

Blah, blah, blah...

Do IO's and NGO's really have nothing better to talk about?? I mean seriously. This topic is horseshit. I would be willing to bet that more people are killed by unclean drinking water than friggin enexploded cluster munitions...

Don't miss the forest for the trees.:sleep_125