ordinary_guy
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Who won the MMA contract?
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Boeing or Lockheed?
- Thread starter ordinary_guy
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So Boeing won the contract... Will today's NAs/SNAs ever get a chance to pilot one of these new aircraft? Webmaster or zab (or anyone else), any opinions as to whether the choice to go with Boeing was the right decision? Any guesses as to whether the new MMA students will go through the jet pipeline now?
Wait a second.... 767... that doesn't have pannel nav does it? I dont think the commercial version has a nav in it... will that limit the NFO component to the Tacco?
My guess is TRACOMs will probably adopt T-1s or something similar. Maybe fund additions to the Vance E-6 training program (ugh Vance, maybe not, advanced guys still need that all important 2-flight ONAV overwater....because its f*cking fun). Finally dump the T-44s, and relegate the C-12s to station ferry aircraft. Little point in putting a guy who's gonna fly a monster like that in a jet pipeline. Half the point of Maritime advanced is the introduction of Crew Coordination (and yes jet guys, I am aware you do it as well, but it's still done way differently) and side-by-side interaction.
As far as the choice...either would have been fine with me. Shame we'll lose the FEs though. I'm sure there will still be a Nav onboard. There's WAY too much stuff going on for there to be only one NFO, plus all the stuff a nugget FO has to learn after the RAG. That would be one cranky TACCO.
Ugh, in-flight refueling. Are they serious? Like the crew isn't ready to kill each other after 10 hours as it is?
I wanna know if the plan is to pop the hatch down low to deploy a SAR kit. Also, are they gonna add a cargo door? THAT would be a nice idea, "a guy I know" once watched a crew load a Harley on a P-3 through that tiny main cabin door....what a nightmare.
As far as the choice...either would have been fine with me. Shame we'll lose the FEs though. I'm sure there will still be a Nav onboard. There's WAY too much stuff going on for there to be only one NFO, plus all the stuff a nugget FO has to learn after the RAG. That would be one cranky TACCO.
Ugh, in-flight refueling. Are they serious? Like the crew isn't ready to kill each other after 10 hours as it is?
I wanna know if the plan is to pop the hatch down low to deploy a SAR kit. Also, are they gonna add a cargo door? THAT would be a nice idea, "a guy I know" once watched a crew load a Harley on a P-3 through that tiny main cabin door....what a nightmare.
I'm definitely excited about the new plane. I too will miss the FE's and their...unique view of things (and the occasional, "its mon DC cur...").
Inflight refueling is a BAD idea though, i'd say they need to take that out. On the other hand, it looks as if we'll have a real head, that'll be a nice change. Maybe a real galley too. Man, now i'm sounding like an air force pilot!
Still, a plane with that new plane smell will be nice
Inflight refueling is a BAD idea though, i'd say they need to take that out. On the other hand, it looks as if we'll have a real head, that'll be a nice change. Maybe a real galley too. Man, now i'm sounding like an air force pilot!
Still, a plane with that new plane smell will be nice
Little gouge form your friends in Navy Oklahoma 
As far as the NAV goes, well, its probably all over for them. With the upgrade to the all glass flight deck on the E-6, we're hearing the NAV will be obsolete. Since the MMA will have virtually the same system we are getting, I would hedge my bet on no more NAV, at least in the traditional sense.
Regarding the training squadron issue, I don't see them opening up more spots at Vance. This is because they are already at about maximum in terms of students up there and there's no way they could handle 150 more Navy studs per year without massive changes that I just don't see happening. I am praying the Navy stands up a T-1 like VT for the studs, and hopefully by 2010. One thought I had, literally trade VT-31 and 35 for a T-1 squadron, the AF needs the 44 and 12 for their large 130 fleet anyway, and the Navy won't need those planes anymore. The Marine 130 studs can go with the 44 and train w/ the AF, or the MC can pony up some cash to buy a few more T-1s and they can stay with the Navy. The ones who get screwed the most are the AF 130 studs, the couple I met who got 130s out of Vance acted as though they just got out of a death sentence.
Just my 2/100th of a dollar, but any way you slice it this is a good, no, great move by the Navy. BTW, air refueling is kick ass, especially if you need to lose weight, you'll sweat off pounds each time you do it!
As far as the NAV goes, well, its probably all over for them. With the upgrade to the all glass flight deck on the E-6, we're hearing the NAV will be obsolete. Since the MMA will have virtually the same system we are getting, I would hedge my bet on no more NAV, at least in the traditional sense.
Regarding the training squadron issue, I don't see them opening up more spots at Vance. This is because they are already at about maximum in terms of students up there and there's no way they could handle 150 more Navy studs per year without massive changes that I just don't see happening. I am praying the Navy stands up a T-1 like VT for the studs, and hopefully by 2010. One thought I had, literally trade VT-31 and 35 for a T-1 squadron, the AF needs the 44 and 12 for their large 130 fleet anyway, and the Navy won't need those planes anymore. The Marine 130 studs can go with the 44 and train w/ the AF, or the MC can pony up some cash to buy a few more T-1s and they can stay with the Navy. The ones who get screwed the most are the AF 130 studs, the couple I met who got 130s out of Vance acted as though they just got out of a death sentence.
Just my 2/100th of a dollar, but any way you slice it this is a good, no, great move by the Navy. BTW, air refueling is kick ass, especially if you need to lose weight, you'll sweat off pounds each time you do it!
blah blah, i dont fly e-2s/c-2s/or c-130s, so i forgot all about those guys.
yeah i guess combine all of them into one squadron with the c-12s. Keep 'em in Corpus. Turn VT-31 into a T-1 squadron. What do I know?
I still don't believe thet won't have a Nav onboard. Maybe he won't be called a Nav, but he'll still be doing ***** work for the TACCO and making all the calls. "Lil Tacco", "TACCO's Meat Puppet"....maybe....the FRS would be wayyyyy too long to try to pump new NFOs to the fleet as qualified TACCCOs (those guys work their asses off, and they also know how to do it with or WITHOUT any computer assistance, not easy). Besides...who's gonna haul all the crypto (ok ok, who's gonna help the 3P haul the crypto...).
yeah i guess combine all of them into one squadron with the c-12s. Keep 'em in Corpus. Turn VT-31 into a T-1 squadron. What do I know?
I still don't believe thet won't have a Nav onboard. Maybe he won't be called a Nav, but he'll still be doing ***** work for the TACCO and making all the calls. "Lil Tacco", "TACCO's Meat Puppet"....maybe....the FRS would be wayyyyy too long to try to pump new NFOs to the fleet as qualified TACCCOs (those guys work their asses off, and they also know how to do it with or WITHOUT any computer assistance, not easy). Besides...who's gonna haul all the crypto (ok ok, who's gonna help the 3P haul the crypto...).
To supplement what Zab is saying....
Ah, 2010-2012 is a ways, off, I would be entering my dept head tour (O4) at 2010, and for some reason, I would imagine that everyone and their brother would be fighting to get into a 737 squadron. My guess, first one would be in Jax.
As for the pipeline, don't know what the plans are. One of the O4s from Zabs old squadron is going back to the FRS to stand up the new curriculum.
When Boeing demoed the 737 to each of the VP squadrons, it had the heads up display, quite cool, couldn't really see it in its glory on the ground, but saw it on Wings one day, and was quite impressed.
Will Boeing get it here faster? They made the same statement that they could have it off the line and ready. Well.... as zab mentioned in the earlier thread, there is still a lot to be done. The whole tube needs to be designed integrated. The bomb bay apparently is wind tested and designed, but along with wing stores, Boeing needs to give one to the Navy to test. Then finally, run it through its paces to create the new NATOPs....
One of the most interesting things I thought of the proposal was that the Navy was going to end up owning the systems bus and software for the tube electronics, one of the problems of the P3 is paying the original source code holder to rewrite/adapt code to get the electronics to talk together....
UAV, or BAMS, will be interesting to see how it will come about, and the integration with the aircraft. Will there be another sensor operator? Or will somone get another job, and additional training?
NAV or no NAV... I seriously doubt a NAV position will disappear, there are way too many comms, crypto management, and navigation issues that a NAV is essential for. Plus, backing up the TACCO.
Anyone after Zab and I stand a better chance of seeing the MMA, whether as an FRS instructor after your first Fleet P3 tour (if you arrive before 2010), or you stick around for O4.
Cargo door, that would be sweet... but that makes me wonder what other missions we would get tasked with. Would be nice if each squadron got one plain jane cargo 737 to do pilot trainers, maint det moves, and log runs, instead of bouncing a full tactical bird. But that is wayyy too much wishful thinking. Part of the package is new sims, so I wonder what that will do to the pilot training syllabus?
All in all, a good thing, either Lockheed or Boeing would have meant a NEW plane for the MPRA community. I think the 737 was the right choice, with regards to long term maintenance. I am really going to miss FEs though, that extra person (or 2) in the cockpit in many instances is a lifesaver. The 737 will provide a lot of enhanced capabilities. The inflight refueling gives me pause though, thankfully they can't give us sonobuoys also!
Too bad though I will probably never fly one, I will just be the old fart saying remember the good old days flying the warpig...
Ah, 2010-2012 is a ways, off, I would be entering my dept head tour (O4) at 2010, and for some reason, I would imagine that everyone and their brother would be fighting to get into a 737 squadron. My guess, first one would be in Jax.
As for the pipeline, don't know what the plans are. One of the O4s from Zabs old squadron is going back to the FRS to stand up the new curriculum.
When Boeing demoed the 737 to each of the VP squadrons, it had the heads up display, quite cool, couldn't really see it in its glory on the ground, but saw it on Wings one day, and was quite impressed.
Will Boeing get it here faster? They made the same statement that they could have it off the line and ready. Well.... as zab mentioned in the earlier thread, there is still a lot to be done. The whole tube needs to be designed integrated. The bomb bay apparently is wind tested and designed, but along with wing stores, Boeing needs to give one to the Navy to test. Then finally, run it through its paces to create the new NATOPs....
One of the most interesting things I thought of the proposal was that the Navy was going to end up owning the systems bus and software for the tube electronics, one of the problems of the P3 is paying the original source code holder to rewrite/adapt code to get the electronics to talk together....
UAV, or BAMS, will be interesting to see how it will come about, and the integration with the aircraft. Will there be another sensor operator? Or will somone get another job, and additional training?
NAV or no NAV... I seriously doubt a NAV position will disappear, there are way too many comms, crypto management, and navigation issues that a NAV is essential for. Plus, backing up the TACCO.
Anyone after Zab and I stand a better chance of seeing the MMA, whether as an FRS instructor after your first Fleet P3 tour (if you arrive before 2010), or you stick around for O4.
Cargo door, that would be sweet... but that makes me wonder what other missions we would get tasked with. Would be nice if each squadron got one plain jane cargo 737 to do pilot trainers, maint det moves, and log runs, instead of bouncing a full tactical bird. But that is wayyy too much wishful thinking. Part of the package is new sims, so I wonder what that will do to the pilot training syllabus?
All in all, a good thing, either Lockheed or Boeing would have meant a NEW plane for the MPRA community. I think the 737 was the right choice, with regards to long term maintenance. I am really going to miss FEs though, that extra person (or 2) in the cockpit in many instances is a lifesaver. The 737 will provide a lot of enhanced capabilities. The inflight refueling gives me pause though, thankfully they can't give us sonobuoys also!
Too bad though I will probably never fly one, I will just be the old fart saying remember the good old days flying the warpig...
To give you some idea about what might happen to the NAV, NFO progression in EP-3's may be an indicator. There are 3 NFO's on the plane, the NAV (or Biatch), the Evaluator (EVAL) and then the Senior Evaluator(SEVAL). After serving your time as a Nav you go to the back and run half of the back end as the EVAL. In reality though, you are learning the SEVAL's job the whole time. So what I can see happening is an Assistant Tacco type thing where he still does all the crap work like crypto and getting coffee but learning the Tacco job at the same time. And while the NAV position is going away for a lot of platforms it will probably not disappear completely for some time. There are still platforms where you really want a third set of eyes paying attention to where you are at, especially reconnaisance aircraft like the EP-3, RC-135 and even the P-3 (who have occasionally gotten lost with a Nav).
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