Burden of command

[fc2spyguy]

Ok, just curious about this. Everyone knows that the burden of command for a SWO pretty much extends to everything on the ship and his personnel. So, if ship runs aground or has some other catastrophic event it all falls down on the skipper.

Now, with that in mind how does it relate to say a CO of a squadron? Meaning if a plane & pilot are lost say due to pilot error how does that come back on the CO of the squadron? Or if it's something like a maintenance issue (ie. improper maintenance by the ground crew causes a catostrophic failure and you lose a plane).

I am just curious because it seems like it could potentially be different in a squadron due to the indepenant nature of a pilot up in the sky.

 

[Brett327]

Ok, just curious about this. Everyone knows that the burden of command for a SWO pretty much extends to everything on the ship and his personnel. So, if ship runs aground or has some other catastrophic event it all falls down on the skipper.

Now, with that in mind how does it relate to say a CO of a squadron? Meaning if a plane & pilot are lost say due to pilot error how does that come back on the CO of the squadron? Or if it's something like a maintenance issue (ie. improper maintenance by the ground crew causes a catostrophic failure and you lose a plane).

I am just curious because it seems like it could potentially be different in a squadron due to the indepenant nature of a pilot up in the sky.

Generally, that is true. A/C mishaps happen, sometimes without fault of the aircrew, maintenance or the leadership. I have, however, seen skippers relieved when the investigation concludes that the causal factors originate from an unsafe command climate, or other factors where the CO has more of an influence.

Brett

 

[A4sForever]

Perhaps this is what Brett327 said and I didn't get it, but ... TRENDS count for something in accident/incident investigations in a squadron.

Was it an isolated occurrence, or was it part of a trend -- both in the air and on the ground? I witnessed one C.O. roll early for "personal reasons" (he was relieved, actually) because there was one too many accident/incidents on his watch. He was not a bad C.O. -- just had a run of bad "luck".

Still ..... it was HIS watch.

 

[skidkid]

In the current Marine Corps the CO will be fired for one class A mishap or a bunch of Cs.

 

[Brett327]

There was a certain VAQ squadron CO who recently was relieved by CAG and his Admiral for "lack of confidence" due to a f'ed up night division break that resulted in a class A and some fairly serious injuries. The COs position was basically that if he had it to do all over again, he would do everything the exact same way. Wrong answer, nice knowing you.

Brett

 

[skidkid]

Change of Command without the band

 

[bunk22]

Generally, that is true. A/C mishaps happen, sometimes without fault of the aircrew, maintenance or the leadership. I have, however, seen skippers relieved when the investigation concludes that the causal factors originate from an unsafe command climate, or other factors where the CO has more of an influence.

Brett

Exactly. The training, leadership and general environment of a squadron can be a factor leading up to a mishap and perhaps the dismissal of the CO. I remember VRC-30 back in 2000/01 under the leadership of a certain CO. Things like weekly training, night FCLP's, aircraft commander accountability, etc were all put on the back burner. Then a COD almost went of the side of a carrier. Part of it was off the side of the boat actually. The skipper began to sweat it because if it came back to the squadron climate, I believe he would have been toast. As it ended up, all of the blame was put on and split between the LSO, Air Boss, and pilot. If the mishap had been a Class A with death or injury, I think it would have been the skippers ass.

 

[Flash]

In the current Marine Corps the CO will be fired for one class A mishap or a bunch of Cs.

Forgive me for being blunt, but that is stupid if it is true. Especially in todays combat enviroment where accidents occur sometimes because the nature of operations. What about mechanical failure? What if the pilot was breaking the rules and he was an idiot? There are a lot of "What if's" that I can see a CO not get relieved for. If there is a trend or some cupability on the part of the CO then yes, otherwise that is a pretty dumb policy if true. A zero defect mentality that is not realistic.

As for the certain CO who led his division into a night break at an unfamiliar field, that is a little more understable. The more I heard about that accident the more the hairs on the back of my neck started standing up. But when a pilot self induces an equipment failure and loses his plane off the side of the boat then laughs about it at the club, you can't really fault the CO for that. You have to wonder about the common sense quotient on the pilot though.

 

[Brett327]

As for the certain CO who led his division into a night break at an unfamiliar field, that is a little more understable. The more I heard about that accident the more the hairs on the back of my neck started standing up. But when a pilot self induces an equipment failure and loses his plane off the side of the boat then laughs about it at the club, you can't really fault the CO for that. You have to wonder about the common sense quotient on the pilot though.

Was that a Cubby bash or what? I was on that boat and watched the whole thing go down. Pretty freaky stuff.

Brett

 

[Flash]

Was that a Cubby bash or what? I was on that boat and watched the whole thing go down. Pretty freaky stuff.

Brett

I was in desert when the report came out. Our senior pilots had a few choice words about it, including one of them who heard the 'funny' crack he made about the accident at the Club. Did not impress them. One former A-6 guy said "I don't like to second guess guys, but I am going to second guess him...." My point was that a squadron CO can't be held responsible for everything that happens, including planes that roll off the side of a boat. As for the pilot, isn't he still flying?

 

[Brett327]

DH tour in 134. I guess they figured that they'd keep him away from the big gray things.

Brett

 

[bunk22]

My point was that a squadron CO can't be held responsible for everything that happens, including planes that roll off the side of a boat. As for the pilot, isn't he still flying?

I agree, a squadron CO cannot be held accountable for everything. However, the pilot of the COD that almost went off the side kept flying mostly due to the fact that 80% of the blame was not placed on him. The issue I have with thisthat is the skipper at the time was little concerning with FCLP's, night FCLP's and in general, quality training. The night program had just gone away and the CO didn't want anything to do with night CQ, thus no bouncing at night regardless. On top of that, he was sending guys on cruise (nuggets included) with at most 2 FCLP periods. I and others voiced our opinon and were shot down. Our head LSO actually went to AIRPAC Paddles who then went to our skipper. The only thing it did was enrage the CO and nothing changed. That's why he was sweating it when the mishap occured. IMO, some fault should have fallen on his shoulders in this case.

When I had my mishap, the CO was not faulted and rightfully so. We were doing training that was inherently dangerous and **** happened. So obviously, every case is different and should be looked at appropriately.

 

[Schnugg]

Exactly. The training, leadership and general environment of a squadron can be a factor leading up to a mishap and perhaps the dismissal of the CO. I remember VRC-30 back in 2000/01 under the leadership of a certain CO. Things like weekly training, night FCLP's, aircraft commander accountability, etc were all put on the back burner. Then a COD almost went of the side of a carrier. Part of it was off the side of the boat actually. The skipper began to sweat it because if it came back to the squadron climate, I believe he would have been toast. As it ended up, all of the blame was put on and split between the LSO, Air Boss, and pilot. If the mishap had been a Class A with death or injury, I think it would have been the skippers ass.

Is that the one with the Argentinian VIPs on board that hung up in the port catwalk nets?
r/
G

 

[bunk22]

Is that the one with the Argentinian VIPs on board that hung up in the port catwalk nets?
r/
G

Yes. The pilot, a very good dude and pilot, was a former A-6 driver who went COD's once his community went away.

 

[Flash]

I agree, a squadron CO cannot be held accountable for everything. However, the pilot of the COD that almost went off the side kept flying mostly due to the fact that 80% of the blame was not placed on him. The issue I have with thisthat is the skipper at the time was little concerning with FCLP's, night FCLP's and in general, quality training. The night program had just gone away and the CO didn't want anything to do with night CQ, thus no bouncing at night regardless. On top of that, he was sending guys on cruise (nuggets included) with at most 2 FCLP periods. I and others voiced our opinon and were shot down. Our head LSO actually went to AIRPAC Paddles who then went to our skipper. The only thing it did was enrage the CO and nothing changed. That's why he was sweating it when the mishap occured. IMO, some fault should have fallen on his shoulders in this case.

When I had my mishap, the CO was not faulted and rightfully so. We were doing training that was inherently dangerous and **** happened. So obviously, every case is different and should be looked at appropriately.

Bunk, I wasn't talking about the COD accident but a Prowler that rolled off the deck about 2 years ago. Sorry for the confusion, and I see your point about the case you were describing.