Dont know if this is the right forum, but oh well. Since I am ineligable to apply for Navy OCS because of some, uh, we'll just call them indescretions on my part during college I am going to be enlisting. I am going to be going in on an aircrew contract since I will be an e-3 immediatly. I want to be on an airplane or helo as a crew man and not on some other kind of crap job. What type of job, once I get to job selection time at "A" school should I shoot for? What are some advantages or disadvantages of these jobs? I am eventually going to apply for an OCS SNA slot, but I need to prove myself to the Navy first.
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Enlisted Air Crew ????
- Thread starter rjacobs
- Start date
H60Gunr
Registered User
Well, as an experienced aircrew member myself, I've flown on both fixed wing and helos. I have to admit flying on helos and being SAR is an exciting and rewarding career. Go to SAR school and get into the helo community. More than likely you'll become an AW so it doesn't matter what rate you detailer tries to force you down. Being aircrew is the next best thing to being a "stick actuator".
Same way they teach it to everybody else; same way they teach AWs today how to be PCs. There's nothing particularly hard about ELINT. Presumably you're referencing the Aircrew rate consolidation. I don't think that a whole lot is going to fundamentally change WRT folks flying the traditional "AW" platforms. If you're flying a -60, you'll get the requisite training.xc400star said:
Good times,
Brett
If you are enlisting solely for the purpose of going to OCS and getting SNA in the future, I would reconsider if I were you.
Life as a junior enlisted Sailor is not easy. You have very little control over your life and very little say in the decisions that effect you. While a young 18 or 19 year old coming out of high school might not be bothered by this, a college graduate usually is. The high school kid is usually looking for direction, training and a chance to mature - the Navy gives him this. The college grad has usually already been through this or is close to being through it. The most miserable (as in unhappy, not bad) junior Sailors that I had working for me were usually the college grads that for one reason or another weren't officers.
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of smart, motivated and educated enlisted Sailors who are college grads. They are outstanding leaders and make our lives as officers much easier. But most of these guys earned their degrees while in the Navy. The ones that didn't usually enlisted for unique fields such as linguist that require the education and provide practical experience not otherwise available to a person straight out of school.
These observations are from over 20 years as both an officer and enlisted man. I served for 3 years as an enlisted Soldier in the Army prior to graduating college and going to AOCS.
There is also the age limitations for SNA and SNFO to consider. It's been a long time, but I think these are 27 and 29 respectively (someone correct me please...). I do not know if age waivers are possible, but I think you would be looking at one shot to get accepted at best. Since you are a college grad, I'm assuming you are at least 22 probably 23. You will not be able to apply for OCS with any chance of making it until you are in your first squadron with an observed evaluation or 2. It will take you at least a year, probably more to get through boot camp, aircrew school, A school and the RAG. The first time you have a reasonable chance of success on your application, you will be at least 25. Than it will probably be another 6 months to see if you are accepted. Than it's at least 6 months for OCS, than API, etc. You quickly run out of time. Further, the competition from within the Navy for OCS is just as strong if not strong than the competition for OCS as a civilian. Most do not get picked up on the first try, especially with limited squadron time and only 1 or 2 observed evaluations.
Those "indescretions" will still be there also. Since you believe they are keeping you from being accepted to OCS now, are you positive they are waiverable and you will be eligible latter? Have you even tried applying to OCS now?
Are you talking to an enlisted recruiter or an officer recruiter? Not to smear the hard working enlisted recruiters, but their goal is to get you to enlist - not become an officer. While they will not outright lie to you, they will bend their read on your situation to meet their goal. An officer recruiter is the expert on recruiting officers and will tell you what your chances are of acceptance now. An officer recruiter should also be able to figure out if your current plan of enlisting for OCS and SNA is workable within the age/time limits I mentioned earlier.
If your foremost desire is to serve in the Navy as either an enlisted aircrewman or as an officer, go ahead and enlist. If you are enlisting as a means to eventually become a SNA, you are taking a big gamble with the deck stacked against you.
Life as a junior enlisted Sailor is not easy. You have very little control over your life and very little say in the decisions that effect you. While a young 18 or 19 year old coming out of high school might not be bothered by this, a college graduate usually is. The high school kid is usually looking for direction, training and a chance to mature - the Navy gives him this. The college grad has usually already been through this or is close to being through it. The most miserable (as in unhappy, not bad) junior Sailors that I had working for me were usually the college grads that for one reason or another weren't officers.
Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of smart, motivated and educated enlisted Sailors who are college grads. They are outstanding leaders and make our lives as officers much easier. But most of these guys earned their degrees while in the Navy. The ones that didn't usually enlisted for unique fields such as linguist that require the education and provide practical experience not otherwise available to a person straight out of school.
These observations are from over 20 years as both an officer and enlisted man. I served for 3 years as an enlisted Soldier in the Army prior to graduating college and going to AOCS.
There is also the age limitations for SNA and SNFO to consider. It's been a long time, but I think these are 27 and 29 respectively (someone correct me please...). I do not know if age waivers are possible, but I think you would be looking at one shot to get accepted at best. Since you are a college grad, I'm assuming you are at least 22 probably 23. You will not be able to apply for OCS with any chance of making it until you are in your first squadron with an observed evaluation or 2. It will take you at least a year, probably more to get through boot camp, aircrew school, A school and the RAG. The first time you have a reasonable chance of success on your application, you will be at least 25. Than it will probably be another 6 months to see if you are accepted. Than it's at least 6 months for OCS, than API, etc. You quickly run out of time. Further, the competition from within the Navy for OCS is just as strong if not strong than the competition for OCS as a civilian. Most do not get picked up on the first try, especially with limited squadron time and only 1 or 2 observed evaluations.
Those "indescretions" will still be there also. Since you believe they are keeping you from being accepted to OCS now, are you positive they are waiverable and you will be eligible latter? Have you even tried applying to OCS now?
Are you talking to an enlisted recruiter or an officer recruiter? Not to smear the hard working enlisted recruiters, but their goal is to get you to enlist - not become an officer. While they will not outright lie to you, they will bend their read on your situation to meet their goal. An officer recruiter is the expert on recruiting officers and will tell you what your chances are of acceptance now. An officer recruiter should also be able to figure out if your current plan of enlisting for OCS and SNA is workable within the age/time limits I mentioned earlier.
If your foremost desire is to serve in the Navy as either an enlisted aircrewman or as an officer, go ahead and enlist. If you are enlisting as a means to eventually become a SNA, you are taking a big gamble with the deck stacked against you.
>>Dont know if this is the right forum, but oh well. Since I am ineligable to apply for Navy OCS because of some, uh, we'll just call them indescretions on my part during college I am going to be enlisting. I am going to be going in on an aircrew contract since I will be an e-3 immediatly. I want to be on an airplane or helo as a crew man and not on some other kind of crap job. What type of job, once I get to job selection time at "A" school should I shoot for? What are some advantages or disadvantages of these jobs? I am eventually going to apply for an OCS SNA slot, but I need to prove myself to the Navy first.
__________________
Robert Jacobs
Comm SEL, MEL, INST
OAR-54
AQR-7
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FOFAR-7
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Robert:
Let me suggest that first you grab yourself an Attitude Check. "Indescretions" is simply another way of saying you did something stupid and got caught. More than once. That's a big red flag for me. "Something stupid " will get you and your crew killed so fast you won't even see it coming. As for not wanting a "crap job," another big red flag. Who do you think does the "crap jobs" in naval aviation? I can tell you from 21 years of Navy (16 years flying) that everyone pitches in. If you aren't ready to be the first one at the ladder of a P-3 to offload and then reload an entire alpha load of sonobouys on the ramp at Cam Rahn Bay when it's 120 degrees in the sun and you can actually feel your body fat melting and running down your legs, you best stay away from naval air. That goes for the E-3 second mech and the CDR TACCO. Your civilian flying is swell and suggest you are "aeronatically adapted." You need to take a close look at yourself and decide if you are Navy adapted. As for enlisting and then seeking a commission, remember, Needs of the Navy rule.
Ken
__________________
Robert Jacobs
Comm SEL, MEL, INST
OAR-54
AQR-7
PFAR-8
FOFAR-7
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert:
Let me suggest that first you grab yourself an Attitude Check. "Indescretions" is simply another way of saying you did something stupid and got caught. More than once. That's a big red flag for me. "Something stupid " will get you and your crew killed so fast you won't even see it coming. As for not wanting a "crap job," another big red flag. Who do you think does the "crap jobs" in naval aviation? I can tell you from 21 years of Navy (16 years flying) that everyone pitches in. If you aren't ready to be the first one at the ladder of a P-3 to offload and then reload an entire alpha load of sonobouys on the ramp at Cam Rahn Bay when it's 120 degrees in the sun and you can actually feel your body fat melting and running down your legs, you best stay away from naval air. That goes for the E-3 second mech and the CDR TACCO. Your civilian flying is swell and suggest you are "aeronatically adapted." You need to take a close look at yourself and decide if you are Navy adapted. As for enlisting and then seeking a commission, remember, Needs of the Navy rule.
Ken
All of the above posts are AWESOME.... but I wanted to just give you some perspective on your original question of being an aircrewmen. All that being said, my exposure to all the different aviation enlisted rates is not that great. This is just my view from the FRS...
AW's are some of the most motivated sailors I have seen! All the ones that I have interacted with are very motivated individuals and very professional sailors. If you do decide to enlist and think you are up to challenge, I would reccomend trying to become an AW.
AW's are some of the most motivated sailors I have seen! All the ones that I have interacted with are very motivated individuals and very professional sailors. If you do decide to enlist and think you are up to challenge, I would reccomend trying to become an AW.
Thanks for all the info. I already know most all of it and I also know why I am doing this and what the outcomes can be. When I say crap job, I mean I dont want to go in on an aircrew contract and be stuck cleaning heads for 5 years. I know I will have to clean heads and do other stuff and am totally ready for that, I just dont want to go in and do that for 5 years which I hear of some people doing. I also know I may not get into OCS during my enlisted time which will also tell me that I most likely would not have been picked up as a civilian during those 5 years as well. I may do that, not get picked up for OCS and love doing what im doing and stay enlisted, I dont know, I cant see into the future and I dont think anybody on here can as well. I have talked to officer recruiters and because of my "indescretions" they are suggesting that this is the way I go. The age limit is extended for prior service to I think 29 from 27 for SNA. I did not post this question to get any thing about why or why not I should do this, I know the risks I run by going this way, but I also know of all the good things that can come out of it as well. I simply asked about what enlisted air crew jobs were and what they were like. I think from all I read that I am going to try to get an AW slot once at aviation school. What ever I do though I am going to work my ass off to prove myself as a valuable sailor so that my stupidity on college may be overlooked when it comes time for me to apply to OCS. Am I going to apply during my first year, probably not, but who knows. I am going to apply every chance I get that I will be competitive. I will not take no for an answer and I am willing to do anything to get to my goal, even if it means cleaning heads.
I've been retired for a few years so my info might be outdated.
All AWs are Naval Aircrewman (NAC). It is a requirement of the rate. AW is the only rate this way. If for some reason you are not physically qualified for flying or flunk out of NAC school (different from AW A school), you have to change rates.
Other enlisted rates may be NACs but there is no guarantee. You may be able to get NAC school written in to your enlisted contract. Most, if not all, non-AW NACs are in P-3s. We had ATs (avionics techs) as Inflight Technicians (IFT) in case something electrical broke. ADs, AEs, AMEs (all various engine and airframe maintenance related rates) as Flight Engineers (FE). The IFTs could go straight from A school to NAC school but the FEs had to spend time working in a squadron before they could apply for aircrew.
There are some PHs (photographers), ISs (intelligence) and CTs (cryptological techs/linguists) that are NACs but not many. Again, I believe they have to be working in their rate before they can apply for NAC.
I've also read on this web site that the Navy is planning on changing all flying enlisted to the AW rate in the future. This should not effect you other than if you do get another rate and NAC school, you will change in the future.
If NAC is what you want, AW is the rate you want. It's the only one where NAC is a guarantee.
Having been a P-3 guy and also having spent some time flying with the helo guys as a door gunner during oil platform takedowns during Desert Storm (they were short AWs and I was looking for some excitement...) - if I was an AW, I'd try for helos. It would be a lot more fun. Becoming a SAR swimmer is a sure way to get helos.
All AWs are Naval Aircrewman (NAC). It is a requirement of the rate. AW is the only rate this way. If for some reason you are not physically qualified for flying or flunk out of NAC school (different from AW A school), you have to change rates.
Other enlisted rates may be NACs but there is no guarantee. You may be able to get NAC school written in to your enlisted contract. Most, if not all, non-AW NACs are in P-3s. We had ATs (avionics techs) as Inflight Technicians (IFT) in case something electrical broke. ADs, AEs, AMEs (all various engine and airframe maintenance related rates) as Flight Engineers (FE). The IFTs could go straight from A school to NAC school but the FEs had to spend time working in a squadron before they could apply for aircrew.
There are some PHs (photographers), ISs (intelligence) and CTs (cryptological techs/linguists) that are NACs but not many. Again, I believe they have to be working in their rate before they can apply for NAC.
I've also read on this web site that the Navy is planning on changing all flying enlisted to the AW rate in the future. This should not effect you other than if you do get another rate and NAC school, you will change in the future.
If NAC is what you want, AW is the rate you want. It's the only one where NAC is a guarantee.
Having been a P-3 guy and also having spent some time flying with the helo guys as a door gunner during oil platform takedowns during Desert Storm (they were short AWs and I was looking for some excitement...) - if I was an AW, I'd try for helos. It would be a lot more fun. Becoming a SAR swimmer is a sure way to get helos.
HAL Pilot said:
Actually, you can come in as an AE, AD, AME, AM as an aircreman and go straight to the RAG to be a Flight Engineer. We have been accepting people right out of "A" school on a very regular basis for the last few years. When you first start the training pipeline at VP-30, you go through a prep phase that is approximately 6 weeks long to help familiarize you with the the P-3.
It is a good thing? Sometimes not. It totally depends on the person and how much effort you want to put into learning the job. I will not lie, it is a VERY demanding school. It is almost the equivalent to craming a bacholers degree into 10 months.
With all said, It is all worth the work. I feel it is the best job for an enlisted person in the fleet..