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Female Navy Student Shot in Pensacola

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RedFive

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Yesterday I was thinking about this fucking travesty that happened to Ahmaud Arbery in Georgia when I remembered Tyler Jefferson, who was shot and killed while jogging the last time I was stationed in Pensacola. 18 years old, jogging on her own time, a week away from graduating. She'd probably be somebody's Chief by now. I was hoping I'd look this up and find out they caught the asshole, but it appears they haven't.

25701

Female Navy Student Shot Dead
Navy Dedicates Running Track to Sailor
Sketch Released of Man Wanted
www.tylerjeffersonreward.org
Escambia County Sheriff's Office Cold Case

As it stands right now, it appears Ahmaud's family may see justice -- I'm glad they are putting those two rednecks away, fuck them. I don't care what he was doing, the lack of value for life is astounding. I hope that Tyler's family and, by extension, the Navy family see justice one day, too.

Sorry not sorry for posting in current news.
 

CWO_change

Well-Known Member
While it is far from clear that Ahmaud was just out jogging or that the McMichaels' broke any law when they confronted Ahmaud (evidence continues to come to light that calls many things into question), I will give the case you posted a look. One thing that I've learned is that is rarely wise to reach a conclusion on a matter before all of the evidence is released as things are often much more complicated than they seem initially. Happy to debate with others further on this matter, but that necessitates that cool heads prevail and folks are interested in having an unemotional conversation based on facts, evidence and law.
 

Ken_gone_flying

"I live vicariously through myself."
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While it is far from clear that Ahmaud was just out jogging or that the McMichaels' broke any law when they confronted Ahmaud (evidence continues to come to light that calls many things into question), I will give the case you posted a look. One thing that I've learned is that is rarely wise to reach a conclusion on a matter before all of the evidence is released as things are often much more complicated than they seem initially. Happy to debate with others further on this matter, but that necessitates that cool heads prevail and folks are interested in having an unemotional conversation based on facts, evidence and law.

No matter what transpired prior to the incident, you cannot hunt someone down the way they did. Even if their intent was to restrain him until police got there, their actions resulted in his death. I can’t see any way this is justified. That being said, he was accused of breaking and entering that same day. I’d like to see his criminal record, because that will say a lot about his character. If you lead a life of crime, your chances of being caught up in something like this increase exponentially. If it turns out that he was an innocent guy out for a jog, this is heartbreaking. If it turns out he’s a career criminal and ran into the wrong dudes, though not justified, wouldn’t have happened had he made better life decisions.
 

Treetop Flyer

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pilot
Even if he had just committed a crime like breaking and entering, and even if they witnessed it (they didn’t) you can’t chase him down with guns and kill him. It was murder.

As for this thread, I’m all for bringing up the Pensacola case if the intent is to find the suspect. Other than someone getting shot, I fail to see how it’s relevant to the Georgia case at all.
 

CWO_change

Well-Known Member
No matter what transpired prior to the incident, you cannot hunt someone down the way they did. Even if their intent was to restrain him until police got there, their actions resulted in his death. I can’t see any way this is justified. That being said, he was accused of breaking and entering that same day. I’d like to see his criminal record, because that will say a lot about his character. If you lead a life of crime, your chances of being caught up in something like this increase exponentially. If it turns out that he was an innocent guy out for a jog, this is heartbreaking. If it turns out he’s a career criminal and ran into the wrong dudes, though not justified, wouldn’t have happened had he made better life decisions.

Because Ahmaud ran at the shooter from the other side of the truck, which is clear from the video, I do not liken that to the McMichaels hunting down anyone. That said, when I first saw the initial video that was released, I was of a similar mindset on the level of wrongness on the McMichaels' part. Indeed, based on the first video alone, it was clear to me that the McMichaels had illegally detained Ahmaud with armed force (or attempted to do so). Under such a circumstance, a person being illegally detained or threatened with a deadly weapon has every right to use appropriate force to defend himself. Thus, whether or not it was wise of Ahmaud to do so, the law would have been on his side and it would be ridiculous for the McMichaels to try to claim self defense themselves when they were the ones who would have been committig a felony.

However, given the second video (
) that shows Ahmaud entering into a home and someone observing him entering into this home (again, its clear that he was not just out jogging, and his family's attorney's statement that he took a 3 minute stop outside of a home is laughable as its clear that he wasn't just outside of the home), the narrative and legality of the detention could change if it is shown that the McMichaels knew about the incident. Under Georgia's civilian arrest statute, a citizen may conduct an arrest if s/he has witnessed a crime or otherwise has immediate knowledge that a crime was committed. Even though its clear that Ahmaud did not steal anything from the house (nothing was found on his person) that wouldn't be the end of the discussion as things would turn to whether it would be reasonable for someone to believe that he was burglarizing the home (such as a neighbor being told to watch over the house and to not expect work on the house on a certain day, etc.). Then there is the issue of trespass, which is clear that Ahmaud was doing when he entered into that home.

Note, I write that the above could change the narrative. Could because if there is zero evidence that the McMichaels knew about Ahmaud going into the house or that he was trespassing, then such a point is legally moot. If the McMichaels knew nothing of Ahmaud's recent actions then they had no legal basis to stop him, with a gun or otherwise.

All of this is to say that there are likely things that still haven't been released via evidence. Thus, I won't form a full opinion/pass judgment on the situation until that has happened.
 
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Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
Uh yeah, I would not be bringing up the McMichaels crimefighting duo as a good example of anything. I wasn't aware of any part of America where it's okay to chase someone down the road and make a "citizens arrest" at gunpoint for burglary. Glynn County GA law enforcement is coming off looking like a bunch of thugs right now- maybe as more facts come to light that'll turn into them being merely incompetent. For that matter, keep your eye on New Hanover County, NC for some of their own recent shenanigans. This COVID must be making crazy people crazier.
 

RedFive

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Even if he had just committed a crime like breaking and entering, and even if they witnessed it (they didn’t) you can’t chase him down with guns and kill him. It was murder.
This.

As for this thread, I’m all for bringing up the Pensacola case if the intent is to find the suspect. Other than someone getting shot, I fail to see how it’s relevant to the Georgia as at all.
Well, it's relevant because it reminded me of her, I thought I was upfront about that.
 

CWO_change

Well-Known Member
Even if he had just committed a crime like breaking and entering, and even if they witnessed it (they didn’t) you can’t chase him down with guns and kill him. It was murder.

As for this thread, I’m all for bringing up the Pensacola case if the intent is to find the suspect. Other than someone getting shot, I fail to see how it’s relevant to the Georgia case at all.

While I'd agree, that's not what the evidence supports as having happened. And, at the very least, there are still several unanswered questions that could potentially complicate matters.
 

Hair Warrior

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In any fatal altercation, surviving parties deserve to be questioned early, often, and separately on the events to see if their story is consistent over time, and/or if new information can come to light. When that doesn’t happen, it can erode faith and trust in law enforcement.
 

CWO_change

Well-Known Member
In any fatal altercation, surviving parties deserve to be questioned early, often, and separately on the events to see if their story is consistent over time, and/or if new information can come to light. When that doesn’t happen, it can erode faith and trust in law enforcement.

I agree 100%. This is why I hate the police practice (in officer involved shooters) of not even attempting to question officers until an association rep arrives. Sometimes this means days go by before an officer is questioned, at which time someone who is up to no good can use the time and information released over that time to hone their story to fit a certain narrative. Such practices are unacceptable.
 

Treetop Flyer

Well-Known Member
pilot
While I'd agree, that's not what the evidence supports as having happened. And, at the very least, there are still several unanswered questions that could potentially complicate matters.
Based on their own statements they went after him because they thought they recognized him, not because they witnessed a crime that day. By their own statements they went after him in their truck, cutting him off and forcing him to run back the other way. The video is of their second attempt to block him. In the video you see the runner change direction from going around the drivers side of the truck to the passenger side, resulting in the guy with the shotgun moving from the drivers side to the passenger side. That results in the confrontation.

They chased him down in their truck and shot him to death. That’s not even remotely in question.

If the guy had just killed someone and they witnessed it I would feel differently. Hell if he had just run out of their house and they witnessed it, I would feel differently.
 

wlawr005

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Nobody deserves to die because they walked inside of a half built house. There's a house being built in my neighborhood right now and I took my kids through it last week because it's interesting. We're white though, so no one shot us.

I'm from south Georgia and this ignorant racist shit sickens me. The McMichael's and the most of the police department deserve to go to prison. I don't give a shit if that kid broke into every house on that street. He was unarmed and the last time I checked burglary doesn't constitute the death penalty.

If you wanna sit here and nit pick the facts and try to justify that the kid somehow brought it upon himself or had it coming because of his "criminal history" (skin color) then you're a fucking racist too and a part of the problem.
 

CWO_change

Well-Known Member
Based on their own statements they went after him because they thought they recognized him, not because they witnessed a crime that day. By their own statements they went after him in their truck, cutting him off and forcing him to run back the other way. The video is of their second attempt to block him. In the video you see the runner change direction from going around the drivers side of the truck to the passenger side, resulting in the guy with the shotgun moving from the drivers side to the passenger side. That results in the confrontation.

They chased him down in their truck and shot him to death. That’s not even remotely in question.

If the guy had just killed someone and they witnessed it I would feel differently. Hell if he had just run out of their house and they witnessed it, I would feel differently.

That still doesn't not support that he was "chased down and killed." That's the part of the post that I had the problem with. Yes, he was confronted. Yes, he was ultimately shot, after running at the elder McMichael from the other side of the truck. I just have a problem with the word choice you use, but perhaps I'm nitpicking.

Also, given that not every piece of evidence has been released, there's a lot that is unanswered. Do you have access to the full McMichaels' statement from that day? If it does end up showing that the McMichaels knew nothing about Ahmaud being in the house, I completely agree and the second video would be legally insignificant. But all I've heard are hearsay reports as to why the McMichaels confronted Ahmaud. If their police statement is in the public record already or if they are on record publicly stating why they confronted Ahmaud, I haven't seen it. If it turns out that the McMichaels only reason for stopping Ahmaud had to do with him resembling a suspect from an older crime, they would have had ZERO legal basis to stop Ahmaud and the second video is legally irrelevant. But all of this is to say that there are still some unanswered questions as far as I'm concerned. One thing I've learned from these high profile cases is to reserve judgment until all of the facts are presented. I have no problem questioning what has been released, but I don't like to form full opinions on the issue until I have the complete record.
 

CWO_change

Well-Known Member
Nobody deserves to die because they walked inside of a half built house. There's a house being built in my neighborhood right now and I took my kids through it last week because it's interesting. We're white though, so no one shot us.

I'm from south Georgia and this ignorant racist shit sickens me. The McMichael's and the most of the police department deserve to go to prison. I don't give a shit if that kid broke into every house on that street. He was unarmed and the last time I checked burglary doesn't constitute the death penalty.

If you wanna sit here and nit pick the facts and try to justify that the kid somehow brought it upon himself or had it coming because of his "criminal history" (skin color) then you're a fucking racist too and a part of the problem.

You do realize that blacks kill approximately 500 whites a year, while whites kill around 290 blacks a year in this country, despite the fact that whites greatly outnumber blacks in this country: https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-09-29/race-and-homicide-in-america-by-the-numbers . This is why I have a big problem with the narrative of whites hunting down and killing blacks on account of race. Note, the numbers alone don't support race-based killings in any direction; again, not based on the numbers alone.

If evidence supports that race was a factor, then I'll gladly accept it. Until then, I find it problematic to assume that race played a part simply due to the race of the shooter/victim unless there is actual evidence to support such, no matter how things play out as far as the race of the victim/killer. You know nothing about the McMichaels and their background, yet feel that its ok to claim that they shot Ahmaud because he was black. I would not prejudge anyone on account of race without hard evidence to do so.

Burglary doesn't constitute a death sentence, but you're simplifying what happened as well as any argument being put forward in this forum. From where things stand (and acknowledging that the evidence that has not been fully released), I'm inclined to believe that the McMichaels were in the wrong and that a charge of felony murder was appropriate. But, with respect, you're not doing the situation any justice by exaggerating what happened in my opinion.

Also, I would never walk into a house (and it wasn't half built, but was being renovated from what I could see...not that such changes anything) that wasn't mine.
 
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