Free Speech

[Whalebite]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060220/ap_on_re_eu/austria_holocaust_denial

Its amazing that people haven’t learned the lessons of that time. One of them being, the restriction of free speech, such as what the nazis did through intimidation, then policy, is what causes problems. Sure this guy is an idiot, but to send him to prison for being an idiot? People should be ridiculed for being an idiot, not be thrown in jail.

 

[Brett327]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060220/ap_on_re_eu/austria_holocaust_denial

Its amazing that people haven’t learned the lessons of that time. One of them being, the restriction of free speech, such as what the nazis did through intimidation, then policy, is what causes problems. Sure this guy is an idiot, but to send him to prison for being an idiot? People should be ridiculed for being an idiot, not be thrown in jail.

In case you haven't noticed, they're a little sensitive about the whole Nazi/Holocaust thing in Germany and Austria. Additionally, our American notion of free speech is not the same as it is in Europe, where being part of Nazi activities is considered a crime, hence the jail sentence.

Brett

 

[East]

Morons

Living in Europe I can tell you this: It's not this moron which causes trouble but the young uneducated followers (mostly from Eastern-Europe).

Living on the downside of society, they tend to think that because of their Arian appearance, they are a better breed that other races like Afro-Europeans, Jews, Moslims, and ofcourse the Asians. As people from these races work and study hard to accomplish something in their lives, the Neo's dislike this and try to relive the third Reich farce all over again.

Although I am sometimes ashamed as an European how Europeans show their gratitude towards the (our) Allies I must say that the silent majority still is very thankfull for what your nation sacrified in WWII, to free Europe till present day.

Freedom of speech is what your Countrie's sacrifices were for, not for those idiots who only are trying to get some attention by saying such ridiculous things. Mandatory history lessons, confrontations with survivors of the concentration camps would be a better sentence if you ask me...

 

[JC52083]

All rights carry responsibilities...i don't like the idea we have to bend over backwards to accomodate people's sensitivities, but freedom of speech should be exercised with some real thinking behind it. Speech can be wielded like a weapon (as we have seen with these protests, with deadly results) and all weapons need to be wieleded carefully.

 

[FlyingBeagle]

who cares how sensitive any of these countries to their past. Am I the only one who sees how dangerous this is? 3 years in jail for denying the holocaust?

How dangerous is it really to have one nutjob denying something that is so widely accepted and backed up with so much evidence. I'm far more concerned with a state being able to declare what is and isn't history, and then jailing people who disagree. Sure they were defending history this time, but what if they decide that an invented history would better suit their utopian needs. If this isn't Orwellian, what the hell is. So what if they have a different concept of free speech. If you think this doesn't affect us, just wait.

So say something about history, go to jail; say something about a prophet and have a ransom put on your head. Where is the ACLU when the world actually needs them?

 

[WEGL]

I understand their law and their desire to prevent history from being "watered down" with false statements. But the legal side of this, from what the article says, is that he's charged with crimes (speeches) committed during 1989 with a 1992 law. I'm not sure whether Austria has an ex post facto statute, but it wouldn't have standing here, regardless of the free speech issue.

 

[batman527]

I understand their law and their desire to prevent history from being "watered down" with false statements. But the legal side of this, from what the article says, is that he's charged with crimes (speeches) committed during 1989 with a 1992 law. I'm not sure whether Austria has an ex post facto statute, but it wouldn't have standing here, regardless of the free speech issue.

Holy Crap! Good point. If this is indeed the situation, the legal culture of Europe is completely a mystery to me. Well, that's kind of an understatement. It kind of makes you wonder where the framers of our legal system came up with the thought that our rights were bestowed upon us not by the government, but by God/nature/whathaveyou. I believe that this is true, but it's pretty revolutionary, I guess at least to Austria. Well, chalk this one up in the "Reason's I'm Glad to Be Where I Am" column.

 

[DocT]

An arrest warrant was issued in 1989 because of said speeches. It seems there would have been some law outlawing the content of his remarks for that warrant to have been issued.

 

[Brett327]

An arrest warrant was issued in 1989 because of said speeches. It seems there would have been some law outlawing the content of his remarks for that warrant to have been issued.

There have been laws against Nazi stuff over there for decades. I don't know what all the fuss is about. Guy breaks the law and is punished. I don't necessarily agree with the way they do business, but I certainly understand where they're coming from.

Brett

 

[DocT]

There have been laws against Nazi stuff over there for decades.

As I suspected.

 

[raptor10]

How dangerous is it really to have one nutjob denying something that is so widely accepted and backed up with so much evidence.

How much evidence did Hitler have that the Jews were the source of the nations ills. "One nutjob" got an entire nation to embrace the idea of genocide and racial superiority. Words have a little more weight then people give them credit.

 

[Fly Navy]

So say something about history, go to jail; say something about a prophet and have a ransom put on your head. Where is the ACLU when the world actually needs them?

I'm not disagreeing with you... but...

AMERICAN Civil Liberties Union... this is in Europe. Different laws, different societies, it's not the United States. Don't apply our laws to theirs... it doesn't work that way, no matter how much we'd like to...

This reminds me of the Americans that go to China to protest their government, get arrested, and cry about the Constitution... too bad it's China... you play by THEIR rules.

I agree, it's retarded to throw him in jail... but it's not the United States.

 

[FlyingBeagle]

My point is that I'm a little more wary about a government being able to rewrite history in accordance with their agenda than I am about a single, uncelebrated historian. This guy as a private citizen is a nutjob, have someone in a position of power doing this (like in Iran) and it is just plain scary.

No, I'm not saying we should sue Austria for violating our nation's constitutional rights. Sure they're another country and there isn't much we can do about it, but don't think that these kind of ideas don't seep across borders if you don't stand up to them. We don't just defend free speech because it is written on a piece of old paper, we do it because we think it is the right thing, not just for us, but for everyone. We don't impose our beliefs on others, but if you take a relativistic stance on these issues, I think it seriously undermines your own position.

That's why I say that if the ACLU takes freedom seriously, they should be concerned about it everywhere, even abroad, even when there is nothing that they can do about it.

They can play by their rules all they want, but it's still wrong.

 

[highlyrandom]

Hey, people deny the ten or more million who died in planned famines in the USSR and China back then...does the genocide have to be racially and religiously specific to make denying it a hate crime?

I'm probably the one jerk who thinks that even though the Iranian president is a really bad guy, he really doesn't give a hang about the Holocaust...probably doesn't doubt it anymore than the death of his own people at Saddam's hands. It's just a convenient way to prove that America's free speech laws have limits just as Islam's codes do. Let's face it, the man's dangerous enough without any racial hatred. That doesn't make it okay, but people focused enthusiastically on the anti-Jewish statements and not on the underlying political trickery, which is exactly what the Iranian administration was going for. Who could look at this case and say the Europeans aren't doing exactly what Iran wants? Punish the blasphemers.