vegita1220
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http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/index1.html
The published results of a Navy study comparing the three.
The published results of a Navy study comparing the three.
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Fw190 vs F4U/F6F
- Thread starter vegita1220
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AirRyan
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Wow, that's a pretty neat read, thanks for posting it. Being of German blood I have always had a certain level of respect for their craftsmanship, thay have always made the world's best Panzers (tanks) and the -190 was one of the finest fighters of WWII.
The -190 was really advanced for it's day and it's cockpit was in it's day what the F/A-18's pit was in it's day - modern looking and advanced. I'll enjoy reading the article as I am really fond of all three of these planes!
The -190 was really advanced for it's day and it's cockpit was in it's day what the F/A-18's pit was in it's day - modern looking and advanced. I'll enjoy reading the article as I am really fond of all three of these planes!
B
Blutonski816
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I always wondered how Corsairs and Hellcats would stack up against the Luftwaffe if they were flying in the European theater as opposed to Army Air Corps fighters...
Hellcats did have a very brief stint flying against the Luftwaffe in Operation Dragoon in the late summer of '44. I've read mixed reviews of their performance though. One online source has them losing several a/c in dogfights, but "Wings of Gold" says that the luftwaffe was just about gone from that area and they met minimal aerial oposition, scoring against a few -110s.
I wonder how the Corsair and Hellcat would have faired against the Dora 190s. They were apparently a decent match for the -51s.
I wonder how the Corsair and Hellcat would have faired against the Dora 190s. They were apparently a decent match for the -51s.
My Dad's unit overran an airfield in Southern Germany in 1945 and they captured several "long-nosed" Focke-Wulf fighters (-D's ?? Ta's ??) along with some German personnel who, according to him, were "waiting" to get picked up by the U.S. forces. He did not know anything about the aircraft, but as soon as they passed the info up the chain, several Army intel types and Aviators showed up and took control of both aircraft and Germans ... Dad's unit moved on.
He told me this story some years back and he has pictures that I saw (B&W) -- which I will post on this thread if I can get them from him. I remember him standing on or in front of the wing of a FW fighter during this encounter. I cannot remember which model but it was, indeed, a FW-190. I have no idea which Jagdgeschwader may have been in Bavaria in 1945 or how they were equipped.
An Fw 190D-9 probably of I./JG 26 photographed in 1945.
I see on one webpage that at least 6 D-models were shipped to the U.S. after the war. From what I remember reading it was a great interceptor but not so good as a dogfighter. The link provided by vegita1220 suggests that also. Interestingly, the recommended tactics -- get close to the FW-190 if in a Corsair or Hellcat and use your maneuverability -- are what we generally went for when engaging modern fighters while flying the A-4 in the Adversary role. Get 'em in a slow speed horizontal or rolling scissors or a turning fight and it usually meant the other guy had slipped into fighting MY fight -- and I would eat them. It seems an obvious no-no -- to fight the other guy's fight, but it happened again and again. Strange how some things remain constant, even when separated by 40 years .... :icon_wink
He told me this story some years back and he has pictures that I saw (B&W) -- which I will post on this thread if I can get them from him. I remember him standing on or in front of the wing of a FW fighter during this encounter. I cannot remember which model but it was, indeed, a FW-190. I have no idea which Jagdgeschwader may have been in Bavaria in 1945 or how they were equipped.
An Fw 190D-9 probably of I./JG 26 photographed in 1945.
I see on one webpage that at least 6 D-models were shipped to the U.S. after the war. From what I remember reading it was a great interceptor but not so good as a dogfighter. The link provided by vegita1220 suggests that also. Interestingly, the recommended tactics -- get close to the FW-190 if in a Corsair or Hellcat and use your maneuverability -- are what we generally went for when engaging modern fighters while flying the A-4 in the Adversary role. Get 'em in a slow speed horizontal or rolling scissors or a turning fight and it usually meant the other guy had slipped into fighting MY fight -- and I would eat them. It seems an obvious no-no -- to fight the other guy's fight, but it happened again and again. Strange how some things remain constant, even when separated by 40 years .... :icon_wink
I know the Ta-152 was designed from the start as a high altitude fighter/interceptor to be able to deal with the daylight bombing attacks. Apparently, it was quite the capable a/c, being able to handle -47s and 51s.
"Premature though it was, the Ta 152 had tremendous potential. Unlike the BV 155, a highly experimental, flying test-bed, Tank's design simply joined a powerful engine, already proven in the Fw 190D, to an existing airframe tweaked to perform at higher altitudes. The result was an airplane faster and more maneuverable than the P-51 Mustang and the P-47 Thunderbolt. Chief designer Kurt Tank was flight-testing a Ta 152H when he encountered a flight of roving Mustangs. He simply turned toward home, applied the MW 50 system to boost his engine, and gave his pursuers the slip."
Also, I know some -152s were assigned to be top cover for Me-262s while the jets landed. These -152s had a very distinctive bright red and white stripes on their underside to aid in the AA gunners IDing them.
I have heard it argued again and again that the Corsair was probably the best all around fighter of the war. High speed, good manuverability, good firepower, rugged, and it also excelled at the ground attack role. The -51 was never as good of a ground attacker due to its bottom mounted oil lines.
"Premature though it was, the Ta 152 had tremendous potential. Unlike the BV 155, a highly experimental, flying test-bed, Tank's design simply joined a powerful engine, already proven in the Fw 190D, to an existing airframe tweaked to perform at higher altitudes. The result was an airplane faster and more maneuverable than the P-51 Mustang and the P-47 Thunderbolt. Chief designer Kurt Tank was flight-testing a Ta 152H when he encountered a flight of roving Mustangs. He simply turned toward home, applied the MW 50 system to boost his engine, and gave his pursuers the slip."
Also, I know some -152s were assigned to be top cover for Me-262s while the jets landed. These -152s had a very distinctive bright red and white stripes on their underside to aid in the AA gunners IDing them.
I have heard it argued again and again that the Corsair was probably the best all around fighter of the war. High speed, good manuverability, good firepower, rugged, and it also excelled at the ground attack role. The -51 was never as good of a ground attacker due to its bottom mounted oil lines.
Here's a sight with a pretty detailed view of the -190s front office. It'd be nice to have something like this in the -34.
http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/fw190cockpit/CockPitMap.html
http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/fw190cockpit/CockPitMap.html
Pags that's a D-9 pic, not a 152
and the red stripes were because those were JV-44 birds assigned to defend 262s on t/o and landing. they were painted like that ('Rote 13' and 'Rote 1' schemes) to alert the AA gunners since they operated close to the terminal area.
/wwii aircraft dork
and the red stripes were because those were JV-44 birds assigned to defend 262s on t/o and landing. they were painted like that ('Rote 13' and 'Rote 1' schemes) to alert the AA gunners since they operated close to the terminal area.
/wwii aircraft dork
Well the P-51 did some good ground-attack work despite the oil-cooler issues; before the Merlin engine was installed (and its high-altitude performance thus increased), the Army actually ordered it with dive brakes as the A-36 dive bomber. And P-51s returning from bomber escort missions over Germany would routinely drop to the deck on the way home and shoot up targets of opportunity on the way home. The Germans referred to the Mustangs and P-47s as "Jabos," short for Jagdbombers or "Hunting Bombers" due to these excursions.
And as for the Corsair, also a great plane, but remember it was also known as the "Bent-Wing Ensign Eliminator."
And as for the Corsair, also a great plane, but remember it was also known as the "Bent-Wing Ensign Eliminator."
They say that for every Mustang lost to a German Fighter.....6 were lost to ground fire.(as I remember from some D-wings show).......though I though it was because of being watercooled and it could not take many hits in the engine without overheating?
I wonder how the Dora Nine would fair in the same test? It was suppost to be Germans best variant and fighter of the war, but not produced in enought #'s, too late...all at jaz.
I wonder how the Dora Nine would fair in the same test? It was suppost to be Germans best variant and fighter of the war, but not produced in enought #'s, too late...all at jaz.
vegita1220
User
beau said:
The way I understand it, the engine was water-cooled. Not a problem, except the system was on the underbelly, which meant if perforated, you're leaking your primary coolant, and the engine would be lost.
But I also heard the P-51 had some neat little aerodynamic tricks. The wing was supposedly incredibly "smooth" aerodynamically for high speeds, which allowed it to delay onset of compression compared to the German fighters in dives. And the little air scoop underneath supposedly help boost engine efficiency at higher altitudes.
Pratt and Whitney R-1830 Twin Wasp (L) and V-1650 liquid-cooled engine -- U.S. version of the famous British Rolls-Royce "Merlin" engine (R)
RADIALS and INLINES: What's the diff ??
The air-cooled radial has advantages in some circumstances (especially in being far more resistant to battle damage) but liquid cooling had technical advantages. It was more efficient than air-cooling, and permitted closer control of the engine's working temperature. A good liquid-cooled engine was usually capable of producing a higher power output than an air-cooled one of equal size and quality, and would produce a lower fuel consumption. Of course, individual differences between engine designs make direct comparisons difficult.
Liquid cooling did of course have the practical advantage of permitting more slender engine designs (typically vee-type) to the benefit of aerodynamics, which also helped improve speed and range. It's difficult to separate that issue out from the technical one mentioned above. And the issue is further confused by the fact that the aircraft they were fitted to varied considerably in aerodynamic quality, quite apart from the basic engine installation.
Basically, I'd choose an air-cooled radial for naval aircraft, ground attack and long-range patrol planes (i.e. mostly lower altitudes), and liquid-cooled in-lines for interceptors or fast strategic bombers (i.e. mostly higher altitudes).
nittany03 said:Well the P-51 did some good ground-attack work despite the oil-cooler issues; before the Merlin engine was installed (and its high-altitude performance thus increased), the Army actually ordered it with dive brakes as the A-36 dive bomber. And P-51s returning from bomber escort missions over Germany would routinely drop to the deck on the way home and shoot up targets of opportunity on the way home. The Germans referred to the Mustangs and P-47s as "Jabos," short for Jagdbombers or "Hunting Bombers" due to these excursions.
And as for the Corsair, also a great plane, but remember it was also known as the "Bent-Wing Ensign Eliminator."
Yeah, the -51s would do ground attack, but like others have pointed out, their design made them very susceptible to ground fire. The -47 with its radial engine, was able to soak up a lot more damage. I've read accounts of guys flying through trees in the -47 and making it home with a cowling full of branches. And there's also the pretty famous account of the damaged -47 that a -190 couldn't manage to bring down. After trying several times, the german couldn't do enough damage, and he eventually gave up. I'm sure it's on the internet somewhere, I just don't have time to look before work.
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