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History Channel's Dogfights taking recommendations

bunk22

Super *********
pilot
Super Moderator
The History Channel is taking recommendations for dogfight episodes for all you history geeks...me included of course. I added my input from 12 April 1945. I have way too much time on my hands obviously.

The Japanese were in total retreat by this stage of the war and the numbers of experienced combat pilots were small. A Japanese Navy Captain by the name of Minoru Genda came up with the idea to create a squadron with as many experienced combat veterans as possible. The average flight time for the younger aviators was 500 hours which was huge at that time in the war. Then of course there were the surving combat veterans with thousands of hours and multiple kills....Sakai, Muto, Minoru Honda, Siguta, Ichimura etc. They would fly the latest and greatest in the form of the Kawanishi N1K2-Ja Shiden-Kai, we called it the George.

2911762417_58a3c09093.jpg


george.jpg


This was the second version of this fighter, the first being the N1K1 which was a mid-wing design with engine and landing gear issues. Only about 550 of the Shiden-Kai were made and at low to medium altitudes, it was the equal of the Hellcat. Up high, it was sluggish and slow. It did not have armor but had self-sealing fuel tanks, a canopy with some armor protection and 4 heavy hitting 20 mm cannons.

So the 343rd Kokutai was created in saw its first combat on 12 April 1945. I think they had about 120 Georges so I don't think 120 vs 1000's of Allied aircraft whould have made a difference but they could possibly make a dent. On this date, the Japanese were expecting allied air assaults and had two flights of 40 Georges standing by, each section being lead by an experienced pilot. At least two large air battles took place that day. The allies were expecting an easy go of things and most squadrons had yet to meet any quality aircraft or pilots at this stage in the war. The Navy and MC were easily used to 10 or 20 to 1 kill ratios at this time

VMF-123 flying Corsairs and VBF-17 flying Hellcats bore the brunt of the fight against the 343rd. The end score that day was about parity with the Americans coming out of top but a kill ratio of around 1:1 was not what we were used to. In the end, 15 Georges were shot down vs 3 Corsairs shot down, another 4 so badly damgaed that they were dumped overboard; 6 F6F Hellcats were shot down (at least 1 ditching due to damage by Georges is part of this), 1 Hellcat dumped overboard due to combat damage and 1 lost in a mid-air with a George. So final score, 15 to 14 if all losses are counted.

The 343rd was on the losing end in a few more big battles. It won a few skirmishes but it was enough for the allies to put out notices to be aware that experienced and well trained pilots were flying in around certain areas.
 

Hozer

Jobu needs a refill!
None
Contributor
Second Schweinfurt, October 14, 1943.

77 B-17's lost in a single raid, including 60 over Germany.

The 305th BG lost 13 of 16 B-17's, virtually ceasing to exist.

The raid was considered a success, but the Germans had stockpiled ballbearings and impact on armaments production was debatable.
 

bunk22

Super *********
pilot
Super Moderator
Another classic for the Navy would probably be 18 November 1952 off the USS Oriskany. Due to the F-86 and its mission, the AF saw the majority of the air-to-air action during the Korean War. On this date, 4 F9F Panthers of VF-781 were launched from the Oriskany when 7 targets were picked up on radar coming from Valdivostock. One Panther had engine problems and never made it into the fight so it ended up being 3 F9F Panthers vs 7 Soviet Mig-15's. These were Soviet flown Migs from Russia and I believe the communist were trying to teach the US Navy a lesson for bombings near the border or something to that effect. End result, the "official" count, the Navy pilots scored two confirmed kills and one damaged vs no loss. Though two of our Panther's were shot up. However, Soviet records not only confirm the 2 Mig losses (both pilots KIA) but it seems only 2 of the 7 Migs made it back to base intact, with another badly damaged. The article I'm posting is claiming that it is now known that one of the pilots, LT Royce Williams actually had 3 Mig-15 kills that day, and a LT Middleton with the other kill. The incident was initially hushed up by our government being these were Russian Mig's that took a beating. The 3 Panther pilots took on a superior fighter at an altitude where the Mig 15's performance was far superior and beat the crap out of them. Fly Navy :icon_smil

http://www.thecommunitypaper.com/2005/07_14_05/coverstory.php
 

Junkball

"I believe in ammunition"
pilot
Have they done Ploesti yet?

Not yet, that would be a good topic.

How about Yeager's "Ace-in-a-Day" feat, where he caused two ME-109's to collide and then shot down 3 more in the ensuing dogfight?

http://www.acepilots.com/usaaf_yeager.html

Or fitting in with the local theme, LT Mongilio & LCDR Fox's AIM-7 Gulf War I kills of a pair of MiG-21's while continuing on with their bombing mission, which is said to have proved the validity of the strike-fighter concept.
 

Pugs

Back from the range
None
The show tends to focus on 1v1 or at the most 4v4 type engagements (from what I've seen) but that graphics are great and despite the 5 minutes of content and 25 minutes of commercials I'm usually sucked into watching.

For a large scale battle that likely had a wide of variety of aircraft and WAS as well as A/A action I'd love to see the Battle of the Bismarck Sea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Bismarck_Sea

B-17's, B-24's, PBY's, Beufighters, A-20's (Bostons and Havocs), B-25's covered by 28 P-38's who bagged 20 Zero's with a loss of three lightnings and two bombers.

The strike packages sunk 8 transports, 4 destroyers and killed approx 3000 Japanese troops that were trying to reenforce New Guinea.
 

eddie

Working Plan B
Contributor
Preying Mantis
Libya
The Falklands

Iran-Iraq War (probably would never happen because they like interviews so much)


So I thought this show was long dead? Where is this poll?
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Here are a few for them to possibly depict, you can tell I like the obscure and unusual:

- The two A-1 kills over MiG-17's in Vietnam. One was shared between two A-1's on 20 June 1965 and the other was a single kill 6 October 1966. A-4 pilot LCDR Ted Swartz's MiG-17 kill with Zuni's would be an interesting aside.

- The Israeli Air Force shooting down 80-something Syrian fighters with no losses of their own in three days of fighting 8-11 June 1982. One F-16 pilot, Rafi Raz, had 4 gun kills. Three his kills were all fighters in one day, that alone would be a good episode.

- South African victories over the Angloans/Cubans in 1988, the current chief of the South African Air Force got one of them.

- Corsair vs Corsair, (FG-1D's vs F4U-4/5N to be exact) with a few P-51's too, in the 'Football War'. One Honduran Corsair driver supposedly got 3 kills, one P-51 and two Corsairs.

- Continuing the Corsair theme, Guy Bordelon's night kills in Korea. Might not be the most exciting, but certainly unusual.

- Second some Falklands action.

Like I said, I like the obscure and unusual.
 

Morgan81

It's not my lawn. It's OUR lawn.
pilot
Contributor
Here are a few for them to possibly depict, you can tell I like the obscure and unusual:

- The two A-1 kills over MiG-17's in Vietnam. One was shared between two A-1's on 20 June 1965 and the other was a single kill 6 October 1966. A-4 pilot LCDR Ted Swartz's MiG-17 kill with Zuni's would be an interesting aside.

- The Israeli Air Force shooting down 80-something Syrian fighters with no losses of their own in three days of fighting 8-11 June 1982. One F-16 pilot, Rafi Raz, had 4 gun kills. Three his kills were all fighters in one day, that alone would be a good episode.
Pretty sure they covered those already with the Vietnam and Holy Land one. I never saw the Falkland one but apparently it's on there. Got some searching to do on Hulu I guess.
 

brownshoe

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Here are a few for them to possibly depict, you can tell I like the obscure and unusual:

...and the other was a single kill 6 October 1966. A-4 pilot LCDR Ted Swartz's MiG-17 kill with Zuni's would be an interesting aside.

Like I said, I like the obscure and unusual.

Yeah, me too! This guy would have probably thrown rocks if that’s all he had.:D Love this story!

Steve
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Pretty sure they covered those already with the Vietnam and Holy Land one. I never saw the Falkland one but apparently it's on there. Got some searching to do on Hulu I guess.

Rafi Raz's three gun kills in one day could be an episode alone, I don't think they have done that particular engagement. There is another one engagement where two newbie Phantom pilots take off as their base in the Sinai gets attacked during the Yom Kippur War and they shoot down 7 Egyptians between the two of them. If they didn't cover it that would be a good one too.
 

bunk22

Super *********
pilot
Super Moderator
There is another one engagement where two newbie Phantom pilots take off as their base in the Sinai gets attacked during the Yom Kippur War and they shoot down 7 Egyptians between the two of them. If they didn't cover it that would be a good one too.

That's right, one Phantom crew bagged 4 Mig-17's the other 3. They haven't done that one or the Falklands as far as I know.

I know they did some of the Israeli F-15 kills but I don't recall the F-16 gun kills. Just go to their site and tell em the story. Hopefully they are doing more than two seasons. They are taking requests or were as of a two weeks ago.
 

darrylcn

Member
Are the F-14 v Su-22 and MiG engagements too new to mention to them? I love the graphics on that show and always wanted to see F-14s on it since they were my favorite plane. That was the plane that got me into planes, when I watched that movie (for the flying scenes) as a kid.
 
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