iranian tomcats today

[flaps]

http://theboresight.blogspot.com/2009/07/iran-satellites-and-tomcats.html

i was an instructor rio there for 3 years

this may be true but i'd be doubtful,

"Best available research using non-American sources (as American and IDF-AF sources can be unreliable), have concluded that over 130 Iraqi aircraft were downed (with an additional 23 probable) by Iranian F-14 Tomcats during the Iran-Iraq war; with over forty (40) of these using the AIM-54 Phoenix missile. This means the twenty (20) year air-combat record of the F-15 'Eagle' was exceeded in eight (8) years by the F-14 'Tomcat.' Iranian Tomcats literally faced thousands of Iraqi air strikes. Indeed, Iranian F-14 crews fought in more areal engagements than both the USAF and US-Navy combined during Vietnam"

 

[HokiePilot]

Very interesting article but it includes this gem:

"Most (if not all) national security assertions and behavior by the Bush II administration has proven to be an endless series of recklessness and falsehoods."



Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

 

[bunk22]

http://theboresight.blogspot.com/2009/07/iran-satellites-and-tomcats.html

i was an instructor rio there for 3 years

this may be true but i'd be doubtful,

"Best available research using non-American sources (as American and IDF-AF sources can be unreliable), have concluded that over 130 Iraqi aircraft were downed (with an additional 23 probable) by Iranian F-14 Tomcats during the Iran-Iraq war; with over forty (40) of these using the AIM-54 Phoenix missile. This means the twenty (20) year air-combat record of the F-15 'Eagle' was exceeded in eight (8) years by the F-14 'Tomcat.' Iranian Tomcats literally faced thousands of Iraqi air strikes. Indeed, Iranian F-14 crews fought in more areal engagements than both the USAF and US-Navy combined during Vietnam"

That's Tom Cooper's research and nobody has claimed different or proved him wrong. Hey Joe is friends with him, he says his research is solid. Until somebody can show different, is what it is.

 

[Pugs]

That's Tom Cooper's research and nobody has claimed different or proved him wrong. Hey Joe is friends with him, he says his research is solid. Until somebody can show different, is what it is.

There has been long and painful discussion about Cooper's work on Usenet and others over the years and like you I have no reason to doubt his work.

The guy who writes the aformentioned boresite blog though clearly has an axe to grind with anything US it seems and is just what he claims to hate "an internet expert".

 

[bunk22]

There has been long and painful discussion about Cooper's work on Usenet and others over the years and like you I have no reason to doubt his work.

The guy who writes the aformentioned boresite blog though clearly has an axe to grind with anything US it seems and is just what he claims to hate "an internet expert".

Ah, the internet expert...the one who knows it all without doing a single bit of research or having any experience in the subject matter at hand. They are the best.

 

[Catmando]

I've long wondered if the F-14 I delivered to Iran long ago was still around. Have tried to find out, but to no avail.
Regarding Tom Cooper: We have exchanged some correspondence in the past. I too have no reason to doubt him.

 

[Flash]

That's Tom Cooper's research and nobody has claimed different or proved him wrong. Hey Joe is friends with him, he says his research is solid. Until somebody can show different, is what it is.

From what little I know if Tom Cooper I understand he gets his data from Iranian pilots themselves and I am wary of the high numbers of claimed kills, not necessarily Mr. Cooper's veracity but the claims of the Iranians. If those numbers were accurate there would have been a lot less of an Iraqi Air Force to destroy in the Gulf War.

Having read about kill claims from Middle Eastern countries you get a real sense that there is a bit of 'truthiness' to them, from Pakistan (there is considerable controversy about one of their 'aces') to Egypt and everyone in between. Having dealt first-hand with some in the region you get a real sense that the whole 'truthiness' thing is prevalent in the region on many levels with many claims taken at face value, from military to popular culture. I worked with a former Iraqi Air Force Major General who claimed two 'kills' of Iranian planes from the Iran-Iraq war and even after hearing his descriptions of his kills first-hand I came away with some doubts. Good guy and all but.......It seems to me that the only ones who take the whole kill accounting seriously from a factual standpoint instead of a propaganda one in the Middle East are the Israelis and even they are loathe to admit their few losses in aerial combat.

I know that kill credit is often controversial and difficult to get straight but I just find Tom Cooper's assertions a bit of a stretch to believe. Again, nothing against him but serious doubts about the credibility of his sources. While no one has proved him wrong it would be very difficult to do so and frankly really care about it.

 

[flaps]

well, i guess even if they only got half as many as they say they did, it was still a shitload of kills.
(takes a bow for training them for 3 years).

 

[navyao]

Very interesting article but it includes this gem:

"Most (if not all) national security assertions and behavior by the Bush II administration has proven to be an endless series of recklessness and falsehoods."

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

So am I understanding this right, that there was no real proof that the Iranians were really trying to get replacement parts for their Tomcats? That they've been able to create their own parts? And we DRMO'd almost every freaking F-14 possibly for nothing?

"Re-engineered parts hea?" Too bad we couldn't do that in the early 90's - WHEN WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY PARTS! Wasn't it Cheney who ordered the line at Bethpage be broke down and all of the equipment to make replacement parts for the F-14 destroyed? WTF?!

 

[navyao]

well, i guess even if they only got half as many as they say they did, it was still a shitload of kills.
(takes a bow for training them for 3 years).

Flaps, were they good guys, good sticks? I picture radicals wearing bags, I'm probably off though...

 

[flaps]

most of them were pretty westernized having gone through usaf flight school in the states.
a few of the best would be 'mediocre' in a usn/usmc/usaf fighter squadron. fortunately for them the iraqis were even worse.

 

[bunk22]

From what I've seen in his sources, specifically his book on the Iran-Iraq air war, the sources are not just from Iranian claims. He uses many resources and any credible author should not make claims based solely on one source. He has said the score could be as low as 80 up to 130+ kills. Those in doubt, read the book and as it stands, it's the only definite work.

From what little I know if Tom Cooper I understand he gets his data from Iranian pilots themselves and I am wary of the high numbers of claimed kills, not necessarily Mr. Cooper's veracity but the claims of the Iranians. If those numbers were accurate there would have been a lot less of an Iraqi Air Force to destroy in the Gulf War.

Having read about kill claims from Middle Eastern countries you get a real sense that there is a bit of 'truthiness' to them, from Pakistan (there is considerable controversy about one of their 'aces') to Egypt and everyone in between. Having dealt first-hand with some in the region you get a real sense that the whole 'truthiness' thing is prevalent in the region on many levels with many claims taken at face value, from military to popular culture. I worked with a former Iraqi Air Force Major General who claimed two 'kills' of Iranian planes from the Iran-Iraq war and even after hearing his descriptions of his kills first-hand I came away with some doubts. Good guy and all but.......It seems to me that the only ones who take the whole kill accounting seriously from a factual standpoint instead of a propaganda one in the Middle East are the Israelis and even they are loathe to admit their few losses in aerial combat.

I know that kill credit is often controversial and difficult to get straight but I just find Tom Cooper's assertions a bit of a stretch to believe. Again, nothing against him but serious doubts about the credibility of his sources. While no one has proved him wrong it would be very difficult to do so and frankly really care about it.