Is white guilt making America be wimpy in war?

[HOORAH]

How many of you think this is true?

White Guilt and the Western Past
Why is America so delicate with the enemy?

BY SHELBY STEELE
Tuesday, May 2, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT

There is something rather odd in the way America has come to fight its wars since World War II.

For one thing, it is now unimaginable that we would use anything approaching the full measure of our military power (the nuclear option aside) in the wars we fight. And this seems only reasonable given the relative weakness of our Third World enemies in Vietnam and in the Middle East.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008318

 

[Jay610]

I think for Shelby to assume that the Middle East is a third world country, she should be forced to live in a third world country before she writes another article. Other than that, military force is dictated BY the strength of the enemy.

 

[sevenhelmet]

EDIT: No, I didn't read the "freaking article"...

 

[HOORAH]

I think for Shelby to assume that the Middle East is a third world country, she should be forced to live in a third world country before she writes another article. Other than that, military force is dictated BY the strength of the enemy.

um...did you read the article???????????

FYI, Shelby Steele is a MAN! *gasp*

And since when isn't it a Third World Country? Do I have to live in China first before I can call it Communist?

And your comment is off base. How do you know HE hasn't? You make assumptions about people that can easily be totally off base. I guess I can call it whatever I want having lived for a time in Cambodia? Guess that wouldn't be your first thought about me but you'd be completely WRONG.

Mr. Steele, a research fellow at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University, is author, most recently, of "White Guilt: How Blacks and Whites Together Destroyed the Promise of the Civil Rights Era," published this week by HarperCollins.

It's not like we're fighting the Nazi war machine AND the Japanese Empire here. The GWOT gave us a slightly different enemy. Different enemy, different tactics! What does she mean by "full military strength", anyway? As much as the budget can handle? Drafting every American between 17 and 40?


How much military experience can Shelby Steele put on a resume?

Um.... did you read the freaking article??????????????

Your posts pertains nothing to the point of the article. And um... I was unaware that you had to have direct experience in something to have an oppinion or make an observation about it. If that's the case I could tell you that you shouldn't pertain many of the oppinions that you possess either. However his JOB is to research the effects of civil conflict in the world so his oppinion is actually very well warranted in this. If you read the article you would know that it's not actaully about war tactics at all. And why are you taking it so personally?

I don't care what people's oppinions are on this but how about an actual real oppinion on what was written not some off base comment that contains no substance or relation to the ACTUAL article.

 

[Jay610]

You're right, he's a man. A name like Shelby... Do you assume he lived in a third world country? Have you been to the middle east? Do you seriously think the middle east is chalked full of third world countries? http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world.htm
You said yourself..."I was unaware that you had to have direct experience in something to have an oppinion or make an observation about it" I made an opinion on his article.
"And since when isn't it a Third World Country? Do I have to live in China first before I can call it Communist?"
That makes no sense, Oorah. First of all, third world is based off of GDP per capita. There are maybe two countries that would barely classify third world in the middle east. Second of all, before you jump on a bandwagon and say that China is full of communists, WHY NOT go live over there and see how many people are communist. Take a risk and think outside the box for yourself. I personally liked the article. I was just saying that you don't take an army to beat one man. So, why are YOU taking it so personally?

 

[HOORAH]

You're right, he's a man. A name like Shelby... Do you assume he lived in a third world country? Have you been to the middle east? Do you seriously think the middle east is chalked full of third world countries? http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world.htm
You said yourself..."I was unaware that you had to have direct experience in something to have an oppinion or make an observation about it" I made an opinion on his article.
"And since when isn't it a Third World Country? Do I have to live in China first before I can call it Communist?"
That makes no sense, Oorah. First of all, third world is based off of GDP per capita. There are maybe two countries that would barely classify third world in the middle east. Second of all, before you jump on a bandwagon and say that China is full of communists, WHY NOT go live over there and see how many people are communist. Take a risk and think outside the box for yourself. I personally liked the article. I was just saying that you don't take an army to beat one man. So, why are YOU taking it so personally?

I'm not assuming anything. I never made a point as to whether or not he did or did not. You did. I don't know him personally. I don't know what he's done in his life. I'm merely pointing out that your assumption is unwarranted and just that, an assumption. And you did it again. I have been to China. Do you think I've been to Cambodia and didn't go to China, Japan, or Turkey for that matter? I am living outside the box. I've actually been to these places. Are you telling me that the government of China is not communist? The government and the people are 2 totally different things. Guess what not everyone in America is a Capitalist. Look at the Democrats. Enough said. I'm not taking it personally. But that wasn't aimed at you it was aimed at sevenhelmet. He seemed to be very upset about things that had nothing to do with the article.

 

[mmx1]

You're right, he's a man. A name like Shelby... Do you assume he lived in a third world country? Have you been to the middle east? Do you seriously think the middle east is chalked full of third world countries? http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world.htm
You said yourself..."I was unaware that you had to have direct experience in something to have an oppinion or make an observation about it" I made an opinion on his article.
"And since when isn't it a Third World Country? Do I have to live in China first before I can call it Communist?"
That makes no sense, Oorah. First of all, third world is based off of GDP per capita. There are maybe two countries that would barely classify third world in the middle east. Second of all, before you jump on a bandwagon and say that China is full of communists, WHY NOT go live over there and see how many people are communist. Take a risk and think outside the box for yourself. I personally liked the article. I was just saying that you don't take an army to beat one man. So, why are YOU taking it so personally?

Actually, no there is no definitive classification of "Third World", especially as it's typically used in a derogatory context. GDP per capita is misleading because the wealth concentration is so extreme in most of the Gulf states, that the median is far below the mean. A more popular (and some what less biased) measure is the UN's Human Development Index:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Human_Development_Index, which places the Gulf States in the middle of the pack, behind countries like China and ahead of India.

Btw, having lived in China, I would still characterize it as third world. Yes, they have some very modern areas; but the majority of the country still lives in relative poverty. Moreover, it's really silly and intellectually dishonest of you to wave your hands and say the Chinese aren't communist because they're busy reaping the fruits of capitalism. The Communist Party still runs the country, and the growing public outcry for social services is one of their major domestic issues (ironically, the CCCP is fighting it, since they know they can't afford it and it'll stifle their growth). Much of their industry is still State-owned.

 

[Jay610]

LOL!! Don't quote Wikipedia...

 

[Jay610]

MMX1, you lived in China!! Wow... Thanks for the info. Your paragragh about China's social outcry was informative and pointless. Hoorah, you're getting way off the point. Stop spouting out the same jargon we all hear from arguements on TV about assumptions. I never said you haven't been to China. I could care less, I'm not your buddy. "Do you think I would have gone to Cambodia, blah, blah...". Classic!!!!

 

[HighDimension]

Uh, I think this thread needs a moderator... =)

 

[Brett327]

Actually, no there is no definitive classification of "Third World", especially as it's typically used in a derogatory context. GDP per capita is misleading because the wealth concentration is so extreme in most of the Gulf states, that the median is far below the mean. A more popular (and some what less biased) measure is the UN's Human Development Index:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Human_Development_Index, which places the Gulf States in the middle of the pack, behind countries like China and ahead of India.

Btw, having lived in China, I would still characterize it as third world. Yes, they have some very modern areas; but the majority of the country still lives in relative poverty. Moreover, it's really silly and intellectually dishonest of you to wave your hands and say the Chinese aren't communist because they're busy reaping the fruits of capitalism. The Communist Party still runs the country, and the growing public outcry for social services is one of their major domestic issues (ironically, the CCCP is fighting it, since they know they can't afford it and it'll stifle their growth). Much of their industry is still State-owned.

We have a winner - nice work.

@ Jay: Why not quote Wiki? It's got plenty of relevant material which you might benefit from reading. Try not to be quite so antagonistic and stick to the issues without resorting to ad hominem attacks.

Brett

 

[Jay610]

Wikipedia information can be written by anyone...doesn't that scare you? I didn't mean to become antagonistic, I apologize. I just wanted to give my take on the article.

 

[mmx1]

I'm reserving my full response to the article until I have some time to digest...I feel that he's projecting his own attitudes about white guilt domestically onto the low intensity conflict in Iraq. There are many (good and bad) reasons we're in a low-intensity conflict; the attitudes and biases of society play a large role so.....he might not be wrong. However, I'm getting fed up with conservative commentators that pine for the days of simple, total, unmitigated warfare. Like it or not, those days are over. It's a worthy sociological question, but the reality for those in uniform is that low-intensity is here to stay.

As for wiki, on the whole it's very useful. I'm a regular editor there and have a handle on what's reliable and what's subject to bias, and generally it's a great intro to a topic, so long as you check your sources.

 

[HOORAH]

MMX1, you lived in China!! Wow... Thanks for the info. Your paragragh about China's social outcry was informative and pointless. Hoorah, you're getting way off the point. Stop spouting out the same jargon we all hear from arguements on TV about assumptions. I never said you haven't been to China. I could care less, I'm not your buddy. "Do you think I would have gone to Cambodia, blah, blah...". Classic!!!!

LOL!!

And what pray tell were you stating with this? Stop trying to cover your a$$. It's not working very well.

Second of all, before you jump on a bandwagon and say that China is full of communists, WHY NOT go live over there and see how many people are communist.

 

[Brett327]

I'm reserving my full response to the article until I have some time to digest...I feel that he's projecting his own attitudes about white guilt domestically onto the low intensity conflict in Iraq. There are many (good and bad) reasons we're in a low-intensity conflict; the attitudes and biases of society play a large role so.....he might not be wrong. However, I'm getting fed up with conservative commentators that pine for the days of simple, total, unmitigated warfare. Like it or not, those days are over. It's a worthy sociological question, but the reality for those in uniform is that low-intensity is here to stay.

As for wiki, on the whole it's very useful. I'm a regular editor there and have a handle on what's reliable and what's subject to bias, and generally it's a great intro to a topic, so long as you check your sources.

It would seem, for better or worse, that the focus in warfare has shifted from all out domination/subjugation to a regime change/hearts and minds approach. Now, it's hard to really compare WWII with the asymmetric warfare we've conducted recently, but it would appear as though the collective US/Western psyche doesn't have the stomach for the kind of prolonged, intense warfare required to completely dominate an enemy country. Those tactics require the commitment of huge troop levels and a long time horizon for success. I doubt the US citizenry would buy into that without a tangible and persistent threat to their safety. I can't remember the details, but I read something the other day which indicated that the fastest time any post WWII nation successfully transitioned to democracy was >7 years. Certainly worth considering the next time we have regime change and the spread of democracy on the menu.

Brett