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Isn't My Survival Gear Supposed to Help Me Survive?

FlyinSpy

Mongo only pawn, in game of life...
Contributor
Just finished swim/phys refresher yesterday, and for the first time got to use the Airsave vest with the low-profile flotation collar (LPU-36). We've flown with the gear for over a year now, but this was the first time I was in the water with it. I used to think the SV-2, while not the greatest from a comfort stnadpoint, provided a first-rate flotation system. The LPU-36, while it may be "lower profile" and more comfortable, is truly a piece of crap. My gripes:

1) When hanging in the chute (in the cool virtual reality parachute demonstrator), once you inflate your LPU you can forget about ever looking down again. Want to pick a landing site? No way - the lobes completely block your view, and can't be wrestled apart. Need to judge your height? No chance. The only positive is that you're forced to look at the horizon at impact. Hopefully you won't have drifted into power lines or cactus patches in the meantime. This might also tempt you into holding off on the first step of the whole IROK flow until you get yourself better situated, which might lead to you forgetting it altogether.

2) Better have your visor down! You would, of course, have it down anyway (as per NATOPS), but for added incentive you now have the threat of the CO2 cartridges and inflation tubes, which after you have pulled the beaded handles are *perfectly* (and I do mean perfectly) positioned to each take out your eyeballs on impact. This is a no-sh1tter, too - for the life of me I can't figure out how a design like that gets past the human factors people. When you're trying to swim with the vest inflated, they're also a threat. I got a nice poke in the eye with the oral inflation tube while attempting to swim to my helo hoist pickup.

3) No waist floatation: I really liked having the SV-2 waist lobes and the way they held you up in the water, as well as did a good job of contributing to flipping you onto your back if you were face down and unconscious. Gone.

4) Finicky beaded handles: When you do pull the handles, you better pull them exactly as the designer intended (straight out and down), or they might fail. You might think this would be a pretty easy design to come up wth, but 1 out of the 4 in our little group failed to actuate because of the way the handles were pulled. The instructors made a point about pulling the handles properly - not something I'm sure I'll remember in the heat of the moment.

5) Not even doing that good a job of keeping me floating: Granted, this was "pool" gear and not custom-fitted, but I did have a PR spend a couple of minutes getting the LPU collar adjusted. Still felt like I was riding *way* low in the water, even with it fully inflated. Seemed like it was closing in around my head and neck, when it should have been lifting my head and neck out of the water. The only time I sucked in a lot of water was when I was floating waiting to get hoisted and not actively treading water - in rough (for a pool!) water, I was way too low.

Although I left the training with more confidence in my personal skills and training, I have much less confidence in my LPU. You would think that would be one piece of gear the Navy would be abe to get right, but I am sorely disappointed. Anyone else have a similar experience, or did I just have a bad day in the pool?

(On a side note, the Reduced Oxygen Breathing Device (ROBD) for demonstrating hypoxia is a huge advance over the low pressure chamber. You fly a simulator while wearing a mask and a pulse-ox monitor, and the operator gradually reduces the O2 percentage until you either pull the little green ring or your pulse-ox hits ~60%. It is much better at representing the "mask on" OBOGS failures that the Hornet guys apparently have issues with, and lets you see hypoxia symptoms that might crop up in a much more realistic environment - i.e., flying and communicating. Turns out my superhuman power is apparently a resistance to hypoxia - I was still fully coherent and without obvious symptoms down to 65% pulse-ox; I may go take up high-altitude mountaineering.... :) )
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
Yes, I agree the LPU-36 blows ass. I hated it, my squadronmates hated it, my PR's hated it, etc..

Down here in Corpus, I have my Airsave (I WANT MY FVCKING SV2 BACK!!) but it's outfitted with the SV-2 style flotation..

If it did not have the quick release buckles lined up EXACTLY with the parachute connectors, which are driven into your groin by the restraint harness, it would not be a bad setup.. I acuaully like the old-school flotation on the CMU-33 vest. I actually preferred NOT having quick releases when dealing with parachutes.

In the 60, the quick releases were great, but no parachute harness to contend with there..
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
5) Not even doing that good a job of keeping me floating: Granted, this was "pool" gear and not custom-fitted, but I did have a PR spend a couple of minutes getting the LPU collar adjusted. Still felt like I was riding *way* low in the water, even with it fully inflated. Seemed like it was closing in around my head and neck, when it should have been lifting my head and neck out of the water. The only time I sucked in a lot of water was when I was floating waiting to get hoisted and not actively treading water - in rough (for a pool!) water, I was way too low.

My single biggest gripe about the gear is how it doesn't get your face out of the water. And trying to get near someone else to join up is MUCH harder than w/ the SV-2s. However, I never had a problem w/ sitting too low in the water once inflated (I've gone through training twice now w/ the new LPUs), so it might have been your particular fit.

Something else you haven't mentioned... The LPUs are on top of one another, so if one gets punctured, chances are the other will to. Having the bladders apart from one another on the SV-2s made much more sense...at least to me.
 

feddoc

Really old guy
Contributor
Did you make note of these problems on your course critique? Guys at the unit take this stuff, gear malfunctions, pretty seriously. Where did you go for swim/phys?

FWIW, the way things usually work for new gear......some 90lb NAVAIR (usually civilian) head decides that we could do things better with a new XXX. Input can come from the fleet, via ALSS meetings (both general and platform specific) which used to be held once every 12-18 months. To a certain degree, people at the meeting would vote on where to spend USN money and time. As an example, one year the JHMCS (joint helmet mounted cueing system) got the top votes, next could have been a new survival vest, or a new helo helmet, etc. BTW, just getting the number one position did not guarantee that an item would receive funding. Early on in my career it was difficult to get NAs and NFOs to participate. That changed in the mid ninetys....we started getting a lot more Fleet guys participating.

Once a product gets approval, the 90lb heads start making the gear. It is tested, usually at the X squadrons...HMX-1, VX-9.... Then it is refined. Then it is sent to a squadron on the east coast and one on the west coast. Then it is refined some more. Then it is released to the fleet.

In the specific case of the Airsave, it was tested as indicated in the above paragraph. Doesn't mean it is perfect.... I am just trying to explain the process to you.

YOU have to do some bitching and that is why I asked you about the course critique. Those things are reviewed once a week by the Director, with results being forwarded to HQ on a monthly basis. If enough folks complain about the gear, stuff will get changed. Nothing will happen if you don't start voicing your concerns.

Item number 5 of your post also says a lot. Pool gear gets beat up pretty badly and I am sure that contributed somewhat to your experience.
 

hscs

Registered User
pilot
you could always have your command HAZREP the gear -- the Marines have been trying to do that, to no avail (as far as I know), for airsave/body armor interaction.
 

FlyinSpy

Mongo only pawn, in game of life...
Contributor
YOU have to do some bitching and that is why I asked you about the course critique.
Interestingly, there was a 2-star (!) in my class, (which made it very easy to determine who was the senior man in the life raft....) and he was expressing the same issues to the ASTC Director as I was picking up my NATOPS jacket. 10 words from a 2-star are worth 100 pages from the DIRCOM Reserve O-3 Intel officer, so I'm betting his comments will get forwarded ASAP. My critique focused on the instructors and the syllabus rather than the gear, although you're spot-on that I should have included written feedback on the specific gear concerns.
 

cosmania

Gitty Up!
pilot
"FWIW, the way things usually work for new gear......some 90lb NAVAIR (usually civilian) head decides that we could do things better with a new XXX."

Talk about inflation, when I was 'in' they were only 50lb heads. Either those guys are getting smarter or their skulls are getting thicker.
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
"FWIW, the way things usually work for new gear......some 90lb NAVAIR (usually civilian) head decides that we could do things better with a new XXX."

Talk about inflation, when I was 'in' they were only 50lb heads. Either those guys are getting smarter or their skulls are getting thicker.

I work with them (on the lab side) and I can attest they aren't 90 lbs (quite yet). Lots of white lab coats though!

The program office is PMA-202 and fleet guys can pass issues directly to NAVAIR via their friendly AMSO who participates in FAILSAFE.

Overall, the ALSS program(s) need fleet input, but that said, it needs endorsement up the chain through Type Wing Commanders as it will eventually head up being a funding rack n stack battle for a share of the budget allocation. In that process, ALSS funding (at all time lows) tends to be shunted aside by war bills (at all time highs). UNLESS someone can make the case that ALSS is affecting mission execution, it has a hard time surviving in the current Capability Based Assesssment Process. Most of ALSS is survival equipment so it doesn't even factor into the OPNAV Capability Based Assessment critieris as it is used only when in a escape/survival situation. Many of you don't have to worry about Pentagon budget battles, but you are affected by them so keep those cards and letters coming! I guarantee they're getting read.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Overall, the ALSS program(s) need fleet input, but that said, it needs endorsement up the chain through Type Wing Commanders as it will eventually head up being a funding rack n stack battle for a share of the budget allocation. In that process, ALSS funding (at all time lows) tends to be shunted aside by war bills (at all time highs). UNLESS someone can make the case that ALSS is affecting mission execution, it has a hard time surviving in the current Capability Based Assesssment Process. Most of ALSS is survival equipment so it doesn't even factor into the OPNAV Capability Based Assessment critieris as it is used only when in a escape/survival situation. Many of you don't have to worry about Pentagon budget battles, but you are affected by them so keep those cards and letters coming! I guarantee they're getting read.

Me, personally? I'm on a one-man crusade to get rid of those stupid visor knobs. I notice myself coming up w/ creative ways to create a HAZREP while sitting there waiting for the front seat to find the damn generator switch so I can turn on the A/C.
 
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