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Maintenance
- Thread starter snake020
- Start date
Wow, that's quite a bit of info. I'm on my way out the door, but I'll write something up later tonight if nobody beats me to it. Perhaps chat would be the best method.
Brett
Maintenance is broken into 3 levels, O level (squadron) I level MALS (green) AIMD (I think-Blue) and Depot level.
At the O level maintenance is in house, the Marines or Sailors work for the squadron CO. There are very few non flying Os in the maint department. In an HMLA there is a CWO Avionics O, a CWO Ordnance O, a CWO/sometimes a 2nd/1st Lt MMCO (maintenance, material control O). All other billets are filled by the pilots. The AMO is responsible for the whole maintenance shop-Majors billet, the major shops: flightline, Airframes and QA will be run by senior Captains. The lesser shops: toolroom, flight E, Hazmat etc will be run by Lts or junior Captains.
The Pilots who work in Maintenance rely on their SNCOs because they go flying and trust the day to day work to their Gunny.
The best I can boil it down for a pilot in maintenance is ensure the mission is accomplished and take care of your Marines. Here is a rough list of priorities:
1-Ensure maintenance is getting done, the Gunny SSgt usually takes care of this but ask questions and be involved
2-Look out for your Marines sometime that means counselling other times sending them home for some family time
3-Write FITREPS on time so they get promoted
4-Write awards so they are recognized for hard work
5-Test up aircraft, if the boys are working all night it doesnt do any good if there isnt a FCP to test it up and get it back reported up.
There is much more to it but this is a quick snapshot, everyone is in the same squadron, wears the same patch and deploys to the same places.
At the O level maintenance is in house, the Marines or Sailors work for the squadron CO. There are very few non flying Os in the maint department. In an HMLA there is a CWO Avionics O, a CWO Ordnance O, a CWO/sometimes a 2nd/1st Lt MMCO (maintenance, material control O). All other billets are filled by the pilots. The AMO is responsible for the whole maintenance shop-Majors billet, the major shops: flightline, Airframes and QA will be run by senior Captains. The lesser shops: toolroom, flight E, Hazmat etc will be run by Lts or junior Captains.
The Pilots who work in Maintenance rely on their SNCOs because they go flying and trust the day to day work to their Gunny.
The best I can boil it down for a pilot in maintenance is ensure the mission is accomplished and take care of your Marines. Here is a rough list of priorities:
1-Ensure maintenance is getting done, the Gunny SSgt usually takes care of this but ask questions and be involved
2-Look out for your Marines sometime that means counselling other times sending them home for some family time
3-Write FITREPS on time so they get promoted
4-Write awards so they are recognized for hard work
5-Test up aircraft, if the boys are working all night it doesnt do any good if there isnt a FCP to test it up and get it back reported up.
There is much more to it but this is a quick snapshot, everyone is in the same squadron, wears the same patch and deploys to the same places.
^What skid said. To expound on it, for Marines our dedicated maintenance officers are 6002s. They will usually start off in a MALS for a few months to a year, then go to a flying squadron. Like he said, there they can expect to be MMCO. After a couple of years of that it's back to the MALS pretty much until retirement. Of course there are non-MOS billets out there, and maintenance officers compete with aviation supply officers to command a MALS, of which there are 10 (1 per MAG.)
Avionics and ordnance have their own warrant officers and LDOs. Everything else can be done by unrestricted officers though you will find WOs/LDOs in some billets, depending on staffing. There are maintenance warrant officers (different MOS-6004) but they serve the same purpose. It's also not unheard of, at a MALS anyway, to have a senior SNCO filling a billet like QAO.
MALS=Marine Aviation Logistics Squadron
Avionics and ordnance have their own warrant officers and LDOs. Everything else can be done by unrestricted officers though you will find WOs/LDOs in some billets, depending on staffing. There are maintenance warrant officers (different MOS-6004) but they serve the same purpose. It's also not unheard of, at a MALS anyway, to have a senior SNCO filling a billet like QAO.
MALS=Marine Aviation Logistics Squadron
gaijin6423
Ask me about ninjas!
Crowbar and Skidkid pretty much hit it all. I will say, though, that in both the MALS I was stationed in, the AMO was an LDO. In fact, it was the same guy, first as a Captain, then as a Major.
Well, here's the Navy slant. Essentially the same as described above, in fact both Navy and USMC run their maint. departments from the same rulebook. It sounds like a Navy squadron probably as a smaller number of CWO/LDOs. In the three squadrons I've been in, there were no CWO/LDO guys for the avionics or ordies, but I do know that some squadrons do have a Gunner (Ordie CWO/LDO).
Having deployed with the USAF and seeing their approach, the Navy way is completely different. Unlike the USAF, each Navy squadron is designed to be, for all intents and purposes, a self-sufficient entity. So, as mentioned above, all the "rated" officers are intimately involved with troops and the day to day operation of the squadron from admin to Intel to Ops to maint. I'm sure I could keep going for 10-20 pages, so if the original poster wants to make a specific query, that might be a better way to go about this.
Brett
Having deployed with the USAF and seeing their approach, the Navy way is completely different. Unlike the USAF, each Navy squadron is designed to be, for all intents and purposes, a self-sufficient entity. So, as mentioned above, all the "rated" officers are intimately involved with troops and the day to day operation of the squadron from admin to Intel to Ops to maint. I'm sure I could keep going for 10-20 pages, so if the original poster wants to make a specific query, that might be a better way to go about this.
Brett
My original question stemmed from a BS session with me, my CO, and the maintenance super. Long story short, there were stories of frustration that some ops guys (-15 pilots) typically tended to treat their crew chiefs and other maintainers like crap. There is a belief that the flyers should spend some time in maintenance before going off to flight training to see the entire effort that goes into keeping aircraft mission capable. Part of the problem in the AF is the two functions of ops and maintenance are treated separately and the AF in its only tradition - changing things - keeps reorganizing its organizational structure for the worse, whereas it seems on the Navy side of the house it's all pretty integrated and the pilots understand (and have to be involved in) the bigger picture (flying/maintenance/logistics/support/scheduling/etc.) rather than strolling out to the flight line thinking the planes run on magic.
Are these observations accurate?
Are these observations accurate?
Pretty much. There are just institutional differences between the two services. I don't see the AF ever doing it like we do. In many respects, a squadron is like a family. Aviators have a personal and professional bond with the guys that fix and launch their jets and that is one of the best parts of the job - something the AF will unfortunately never experience.
Brett
fudog50
Registered User
Naval Aviation Maintenance
Do you want the "old school" 4790 version? ( 3 levels of maintenance, follow the NAMP)
Or the new "airspeed", combined 1520/LDO version? (change all kinds of stuff and not follow the 4790 under the "airspeed" guise)
I have done Maintenance for 26 years. I did all O level and Instructor duty while enlisted. Since Commisioning I did MMCO,, aquisition, and now I am the Avionics Tech O on a carrier. I have a Bachelors and Masters from Embry-Riddle.
I also worked part time at a General Aviation MRO in Palo Alto for 3 years, mostly avionics.
That being said, there has never been a more stranger time in Naval Aviation Maintenance.
1520's got it made. If you have the chance go 1520. Your career path is so finitely structured, and you make it in 9 years vice 10 for SWO URL's. The detailers make SURE you get the right tickets punched and put you in billets for only 15-18 months at a time including carrier MO's to ensure you get the-
1. squadron or ship AIMD Divo ( ens-jg)
2. squadron or ship AIMD divo (jg-lt)
3. post grad school or shore aimd (LT)
4. ship aimd MMCO or CAGMO (LCDR)
5. pax or pentagon aquisition (LCDR)
6. AIMD MO or Training OIC/CO (equivalent of squadron C.O.)
7. Then put out to pasture and no more sea duty ever, in aquisition or fleet readiness and FRC jobs.
The LDO's/CWO's actually run maintenance, that is their profession. They get paid to do that. The 1520's are just there to observe and see how it works. The smart ones develop a good working relationship with the LDO/CWO's and listen. Apply rudder as necessary, but normally it isn't and when rudder is applied for egotistical reasons, it usually ends up with the opposite effect.
( This current tour I have already been through 3 1520 dept head MO's on my carrier) So that goes to show that the CWO/LDO community really runs Maintenance, the URL's are just there to get a ticket punched.
There are some 1520's out there that were prior enlisted. They were either LDO's that crossed over or enlisted that did the ECP or Direct Commission thing. Generally, those are the best 1520's as they have done at least some time actually doing and running maintenance, shops and programs. (disclaimers: My best MO i worked for so far was a straight 1520, but he gave me the trust and guidance expected and we went on to get highest ever marks for an AIMD afloat Aviation Maintenance Inspection by CNAF, and my current Avionics Divo is a straight 1520 academy grad that lets me run the show and has been an absolute professional to work with, the best, makes it fun to be on arduous sea duty!)
The bottom line is that Aviation Maintenance professionals are doing the job because they want to and they welcome the challenges. The responsibilities inherent with sending a crew up in a jet and bringing them back safely to the flight deck/hard deck is what its all about. Integrity, trust and safety are the main ingredients to a successfull maintenance department. From the 1520 Dept head to the MMCPO to the CWO/LDO to the flyer Divo to the Chiefs and on down to the LPO's and all the fine E-5 and below professionals.
But that is all old school and it up to us CWO/LDO and senior enlisted to not let the current changes that are afoot (airspeed, budget cuts, billet cuts), change any of the real reason why we are here.
Sometimes you get what you pay for!
What it has always taken is for 30 +years now, is the 1520/LDO/CWO maintenance professionals to take a stand and NOT ever let an airspeed/budget cut result in an unsafe evolution. This must continue.
Bottom line is that as a new Officer, you need to take the long course AMO to even have a clue of where to begin in Naval Aviation Maintenance. That is like kindergarten. Then you need to do at least 3 tours in maintenance to be qualified to talk about it. Then when you really need to know something, ask the LDO/CWO or Chiefs.
I just ranted and barely touched the surface. Naval Aviation Maintenance is the best bar none. All of us AIMD Divo's on Lincoln have taken tours of Boeings facilities here in Everett. The programs that are the most successful have been copied from the Navy (tool control for one example).
If you decide to go 1520, you will have a clear, fast track beside the finest professionals in the Navy! It just doesn't get any better!
(the one draw back is 1520's have no warfare qual! There are 1520 O-6's and 0-7's running around with no warfare device! This is currently trying to be fixed by the top dog 1520's. I suspect the new AMO PQS should develop into a gold colored Enlisted Aviation Warfare Specialist type wings for the 1520's)
Email me directly or add to the thread for any aviation maintenance related follow on questions. There are a few maintenance type regulars in here, but very few, most are 'sticks and 'fos.
Do you want the "old school" 4790 version? ( 3 levels of maintenance, follow the NAMP)
Or the new "airspeed", combined 1520/LDO version? (change all kinds of stuff and not follow the 4790 under the "airspeed" guise)
I have done Maintenance for 26 years. I did all O level and Instructor duty while enlisted. Since Commisioning I did MMCO,, aquisition, and now I am the Avionics Tech O on a carrier. I have a Bachelors and Masters from Embry-Riddle.
I also worked part time at a General Aviation MRO in Palo Alto for 3 years, mostly avionics.
That being said, there has never been a more stranger time in Naval Aviation Maintenance.
1520's got it made. If you have the chance go 1520. Your career path is so finitely structured, and you make it in 9 years vice 10 for SWO URL's. The detailers make SURE you get the right tickets punched and put you in billets for only 15-18 months at a time including carrier MO's to ensure you get the-
1. squadron or ship AIMD Divo ( ens-jg)
2. squadron or ship AIMD divo (jg-lt)
3. post grad school or shore aimd (LT)
4. ship aimd MMCO or CAGMO (LCDR)
5. pax or pentagon aquisition (LCDR)
6. AIMD MO or Training OIC/CO (equivalent of squadron C.O.)
7. Then put out to pasture and no more sea duty ever, in aquisition or fleet readiness and FRC jobs.
The LDO's/CWO's actually run maintenance, that is their profession. They get paid to do that. The 1520's are just there to observe and see how it works. The smart ones develop a good working relationship with the LDO/CWO's and listen. Apply rudder as necessary, but normally it isn't and when rudder is applied for egotistical reasons, it usually ends up with the opposite effect.
( This current tour I have already been through 3 1520 dept head MO's on my carrier) So that goes to show that the CWO/LDO community really runs Maintenance, the URL's are just there to get a ticket punched.
There are some 1520's out there that were prior enlisted. They were either LDO's that crossed over or enlisted that did the ECP or Direct Commission thing. Generally, those are the best 1520's as they have done at least some time actually doing and running maintenance, shops and programs. (disclaimers: My best MO i worked for so far was a straight 1520, but he gave me the trust and guidance expected and we went on to get highest ever marks for an AIMD afloat Aviation Maintenance Inspection by CNAF, and my current Avionics Divo is a straight 1520 academy grad that lets me run the show and has been an absolute professional to work with, the best, makes it fun to be on arduous sea duty!)
The bottom line is that Aviation Maintenance professionals are doing the job because they want to and they welcome the challenges. The responsibilities inherent with sending a crew up in a jet and bringing them back safely to the flight deck/hard deck is what its all about. Integrity, trust and safety are the main ingredients to a successfull maintenance department. From the 1520 Dept head to the MMCPO to the CWO/LDO to the flyer Divo to the Chiefs and on down to the LPO's and all the fine E-5 and below professionals.
But that is all old school and it up to us CWO/LDO and senior enlisted to not let the current changes that are afoot (airspeed, budget cuts, billet cuts), change any of the real reason why we are here.
Sometimes you get what you pay for!
What it has always taken is for 30 +years now, is the 1520/LDO/CWO maintenance professionals to take a stand and NOT ever let an airspeed/budget cut result in an unsafe evolution. This must continue.
Bottom line is that as a new Officer, you need to take the long course AMO to even have a clue of where to begin in Naval Aviation Maintenance. That is like kindergarten. Then you need to do at least 3 tours in maintenance to be qualified to talk about it. Then when you really need to know something, ask the LDO/CWO or Chiefs.
I just ranted and barely touched the surface. Naval Aviation Maintenance is the best bar none. All of us AIMD Divo's on Lincoln have taken tours of Boeings facilities here in Everett. The programs that are the most successful have been copied from the Navy (tool control for one example).
If you decide to go 1520, you will have a clear, fast track beside the finest professionals in the Navy! It just doesn't get any better!
(the one draw back is 1520's have no warfare qual! There are 1520 O-6's and 0-7's running around with no warfare device! This is currently trying to be fixed by the top dog 1520's. I suspect the new AMO PQS should develop into a gold colored Enlisted Aviation Warfare Specialist type wings for the 1520's)
Email me directly or add to the thread for any aviation maintenance related follow on questions. There are a few maintenance type regulars in here, but very few, most are 'sticks and 'fos.
fudog50
Registered User
Yes brett you can be both a stick and a fo,,,hence the word "and"..
BTW that was a mighty short soap box for 26 years you have to agree, and i cut it short!!!
Hey dude I saw in a recent post you have an Aria Pro II? I am in the process of rebuilding one., gonna put 2 Gibson BB pros humbuckers on it! Its my 3rd favorite guitar. I got a 68 SG (same as on the cover of "get yer ya ya's out), and a 78 SG (black like the Angus, before it became popular).
Dude I joined in 82. I played in 3 bands when I was a teen, in the late 70's. I can only say I am very happy I kept these masterpieces. I play a lot of noise and never really got to reach my full potential. But it is great fun, and my wife hates it when I go on my 1-2 week binges of bringing down our house!
It sure would be cool to get together with some old timers and practice some old songs and make some real noise! When you coming back this way?
I got orders after Lincoln to be the 600 production guy at AIMD Whidbey in August. You gonna come back up here once you finish your suntan tour in SD and get involved with Tactics? Prowler or Growler? Regards,
CWO3 S.
BTW that was a mighty short soap box for 26 years you have to agree, and i cut it short!!!
Hey dude I saw in a recent post you have an Aria Pro II? I am in the process of rebuilding one., gonna put 2 Gibson BB pros humbuckers on it! Its my 3rd favorite guitar. I got a 68 SG (same as on the cover of "get yer ya ya's out), and a 78 SG (black like the Angus, before it became popular).
Dude I joined in 82. I played in 3 bands when I was a teen, in the late 70's. I can only say I am very happy I kept these masterpieces. I play a lot of noise and never really got to reach my full potential. But it is great fun, and my wife hates it when I go on my 1-2 week binges of bringing down our house!
It sure would be cool to get together with some old timers and practice some old songs and make some real noise! When you coming back this way?
I got orders after Lincoln to be the 600 production guy at AIMD Whidbey in August. You gonna come back up here once you finish your suntan tour in SD and get involved with Tactics? Prowler or Growler? Regards,
CWO3 S.
From another thread
"Hmmm, I always asked somewhat the same questions when I was a junior enlisted. "What kind of quals and certificates can I get fixing airplanes that will help me to get a job at Boeing or United Airlines maintenance?"
Here I am still in 25 years later!
It doesn't get better than Naval Aviation! (flying or maintenance) Bar none.
__________________
Know what?
Maint departments of Civil Airlines are equally run as those in the military.
Same structure, same duties and responsabilities.
Even the comradery is the same.
Just switched and it suits me fine...
"Hmmm, I always asked somewhat the same questions when I was a junior enlisted. "What kind of quals and certificates can I get fixing airplanes that will help me to get a job at Boeing or United Airlines maintenance?"
Here I am still in 25 years later!
It doesn't get better than Naval Aviation! (flying or maintenance) Bar none.
__________________
Know what?
Maint departments of Civil Airlines are equally run as those in the military.
Same structure, same duties and responsabilities.
Even the comradery is the same.
Just switched and it suits me fine...
I meant both a FO and Maint types. I did turn wrench (or stack BB, as it were) for 8+ years after all.
I'm penciled in for orders back to Whidbey this summer, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed - nothing set in stone yet. We'll have to conduct a good, old fashioned jam out session in that case - dueling Aria Pros? 
I installed a Dimarzio Evolution pickup in mine - 10X better than stock.Brett
Thisguy
Pain-in-the-dick
Has this changed recently? As in the past 2 years? Last time I checked, 1520s had 3 year orders, and the only tickets you needed punched as a JO was an O-level tour and an I-level tour (with I-level billets being far more scarce).
The third tour can really be anything, putting you at the 9-year mark for O-4, which is what I think you were trying to point out above.