• Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?

    Go here:

    Edit Account Details and Profile

Military Confronts Reckless Air Crashes

Status
Not open for further replies.

nugget81

Well-Known Member
pilot
By TED BRIDIS, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - A deadly aircraft accident in Afghanistan last summer is one of a series of exasperating crashes in the military that was blamed on recklessness, not enemy gunfire or faulty equipment, The Associated Press found.

Events that led to the crash unfolded as 11 Marines packed into an Army Black Hawk helicopter in eastern Afghanistan asked for an exciting flight on an otherwise dull mission, demonstrating for visiting dignitaries how troops are sped into battle.

"Fly hard," the Marines asked. The cockpit responded, "You asked for it."

Climbing and swooping, the Black Hawk pilot crested a 400-foot hill then deliberately nosed into a dive so steep and abrupt that everyone inside felt weightless. A wheel chock rose off the floor like a magician's prop and flew forward into the cockpit, jamming the controls.

In the horrific, tumbling crash that followed, a crew chief in the doorway died. Everyone else was injured. The $6 million helicopter was destroyed.

"Top Gun"-style flying, personified by Tom Cruise as a brash Navy pilot in Hollywood's 1986 film, presents the Pentagon with a dilemma: How to breed aggressive aviators in high-performance jets and helicopters capable of extraordinary maneuvers without endangering crews, passengers and aircraft.

The pilot in Afghanistan, Chief Warrant Officer 3 Darrin Raymond Rogers, 37, of Mililani, Hawaii, pleaded guilty last week at his court-martial to charges of negligent homicide, reckless endangerment, property destruction and failure to obey orders.

"I'm not a bad person," Rogers told the judge. He acknowledged that he was "trying to impress the guys in the back." Rogers was sentenced to 120 days without pay at Fort Leavenworth military prison in Kansas. He also must retire from the Army, but will retain his pension.

"There's a difference between aggressiveness and recklessness," said Richard A. Cody, a four-star general who holds the Army's No. 2 job. "We want them to be aggressive but also disciplined, so they don't get themselves in an envelope they can't get out of."

Some pilots bristle over challenges to how they fly, says a retired Marine Corps judge.

"Hot-dogging is not necessarily negligent," says Patrick McLain of Dallas, who presided at courts-martial. "You need a person who's bold and daring and courageous. It rubs against the grain to have this sort of nitpicking oversight. A very small minority would be in favor of scrupulous adherence to the voluminous rules about flying."

A retired Marine fighter pilot, Kris Elliott of New Orleans, said: "Anybody who says they haven't hot-dogged as a pilot probably isn't being truthful."

In one case, a Naval Reserve pilot, Cmdr. Kevin Thomas Hagenstad of Marietta, Ga., ejected and survived a crash in rural Tennessee last year that investigators attributed to flying so low that his $40 million fighter jet struck power lines three miles from the Watts Bar nuclear plant.

Hagenstad, who broke his ankle, said he was "not at liberty to discuss this."

The Navy's top safety commander, Rear Admiral Dick Brooks, cited "blatant" rules violations by Hagenstad.

Reckless accidents, which happen every year, frustrate senior military commanders because these typically occur during training flights and are considered easily avoidable. Air Force crews are encouraged to announce, "Knock it off," when a pilot begins to fly unsafely.

"There will be repercussions," the head of Army aviation, Brigadier General E.J. Sinclair, said in an interview with the AP. "If someone goes out there and does that and it's observed, I usually hear about it from another pilot."

At the same time, Sinclair said, the Army is rewriting rules to specify which maneuvers are allowed and teaching pilots aggressive new aerial techniques that push helicopters closer to their engineering design limits.

"We make it very clear, this is not something you go out and do on your own," Sinclair said.

For training, the Army uses a dramatic cockpit video from the crash of an Apache attack helicopter at Fort Campbell, Ky. It shows the co-pilot yelling, "Yeehaw!" during one maneuver banned as unsafe by the Army.

The tape also shows the pilot and co-pilot debating whether they can fly safely between tall trees while traveling nearly 90 miles per hour at 16 feet above ground.

"Think I can make it in between there?" the pilot asks.

"Nope," the co-pilot answers.

"Oh, ye of little faith. Look how big that is," the pilot says.

Seconds later, the Apache's rotors struck a huge limb, shattering one blade as the pilot struggled to land safely. "C'mon, get it under control, Mark!" the co-pilot shouts. Both crew survived. The 1997 accident caused $1 million in damage.

Marine Lt. Gen. Mike Hough complained last summer in a memorandum to his aviation commanders: "We are killing more aircrew in training mishaps than during combat missions. ... I will not tolerate the blatant violations and lack of leadership I am seeing from our aviators."

Hough's tough message came weeks before a Hornet fighter crash in Quantico, Va., that the Navy blamed on "unacceptable" flying.

But serious criminal charges such as those against Rogers are unusual. Prosecuting pilots in public deeply divides military aviators, who more commonly face quiet administrative proceedings that include warnings and temporary grounding.

"As long as they don't embarrass the government or hurt anybody, they'll typically be counseled and that will be the end of it," said law professor Michael Noone at Catholic University. The retired Air Force colonel has prosecuted and defended pilots in crash investigations.

Investigators said the helicopter pilot who was court-martialed rejected an earlier request by Marines for acrobatics during the flight. But he agreed to a second request and radioed, "Taking room to maneuver," after a demonstration for Marine Gen. James L. Jones, the supreme allied commander for Europe and commander of the U.S. European Command, was delayed 10 minutes, according to an Army report. Crew chief Daniel Lee Galvan, 30, died in the crash.

Rogers, a veteran pilot with a reputation in the 25th Infantry Division as an able flier, would not talk about the accident when the AP contacted him at home in Hawaii. He said his lawyer also would not comment.

Other Army pilots said such requests for acrobatics are common from passengers.

"I've been asked that; I always felt like I had to enforce the rules," said Herb Rodriguez of Clarksville, Tenn., a retired Black Hawk pilot who won the Distinguished Flying Cross for heroism in the Somalia deployment in 1993. "I was like a parent."

On a memorial Web site dedicated to her husband, the widow of Daniel Lee Galvan described her young children's grief and lying atop her husband's grave. She said she hoped Rogers "lives with the guilt of taking my beautiful angel away from his family."

"I just don't want this pilot to think he can do this again, to hurt anybody else," Sonya Galvan of Lubbock, Texas, told the AP before the court-martial in Hawaii.

"At some point or another," she said, "they need to make someone accountable."

___

Associated Press writer Jaymes Song contributed to this report from Hawaii.

___

On the Net:

Video available at http://wid.ap.org/video/pilots.rm



This seems to be an interesting catch-22 -- we teach pilots to push the envelope even further but then tighten restrictions on what they can actually do while in the air...
 

KBayDog

Well-Known Member
Does this mean there will be more rules, or laying the smack down on commanders (which will lead to more rules)?
 

VetteMuscle427

is out to lunch.
None
[Threadjack]My father was telling me there was a Air National Guard pilot who managed to crash 5 aircraft in his career. Apparently the Russian Ambassador awarded him a medal for being a Russian Ace. Anyone ever hear of that?[/Threadjack]
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
This begs the question . . . at what point do we start defining "reckless?"
 

Schnugg

It's gettin' a bit dramatic 'round here...
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Brief what you fly..fly what you brief.

If you'd brief it in front of your CO/Safety Officer...and follow the above axiom...it's probably not going to enter the "reckless" realm...then you got nothing to worry about....

RIO's most feared words: "Hey, Watch This!"
c-54.jpg
 

SteveG75

Retired and starting that second career
None
Schnuggapup said:
Brief what you fly..fly what you brief.

If you'd brief it in front of your CO/Safety Officer...and follow the above axiom...it's probably not going to enter the "reckless" realm...then you got nothing to worry about....

RIO's most feared words: "Hey, Watch This!"

Another good rule of thumb is:

"How would this read in the mishap report?"
 

HooverPilot

CODPilot
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Totally agree with all the above. Being safe doesn't mean don't have fun. Just plan what you are going to do, brief it completely, and let everone involved know how to call KIO. Plan that the CO is always watching, and all will be well.
 

skidkid

CAS Czar
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Sometime you are in the box doing everyhting right as briefed and sh!t just happens but when it does if you had a solid plan a good breif and a solid reputation you will get to fly again, if you live through it.
 

bunk22

Super *********
pilot
Super Moderator
skidkid said:
Sometime you are in the box doing everyhting right as briefed and sh!t just happens but when it does if you had a solid plan a good breif and a solid reputation you will get to fly again, if you live through it.

Absolutely. Unfortunetly I had **** happen and due to doing everything by the book and a solid rep, I'm flying again. I've definitely become more conservative and always tell the younger ones, plan for the what if's. Meaning, if you do this and something goes wrong, you live through it, what will the FNAEB board say. Have fun but be ready to accept the consequences if the **** hits the fan.
 

NavyOCS

Registered User
I would like to see in the regulations where it states that AF pilots are to say "knock it off" if witnessing dangerous flying.

There is a quote with a picture of an old wwI stlye plane crashed into a tree at the "Hanger"(barber shop) that reads something like..... "Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous, but unlike the ocean it is quite unforgiving of any negligince or incompitnece". I see this every week and think how true this must be.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Navy/MC does it too. "Knock it off" is a call used to stop dynamic maneuvering whenever an unsafe condition exists.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
nittany03 said:
Navy/MC does it too. "Knock it off" is a call used to stop dynamic maneuvering whenever an unsafe condition exists.
It's a standard TG manual and AFTTP brevity codeword. See also - Terminate.

Brett
 

Schnugg

It's gettin' a bit dramatic 'round here...
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Knock it off stops everything...like the entire "Roving Sands" exercise. Had an E-2 bubba be a survivor in the field and he said on his PRC-90 "I am simulating having ejected from my jet"...all the EC-130 heard was "...ejected from my jet"...."

His new callsign was "Rightguard"...the pro-word for a simulated ejection call.

For a specific engagment. you call a terminate...ie "terminate the flat scissors between the F-14 and A-4 over the toyabes"

It's all good...

r/
G
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top