Mountain/Molehill?

[Dirty]

Interesting tidbit about the relationship between commuter mishaps and knowledge...


http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2009-06-07-regional-pilots_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip

 

[Ken_gone_flying]

^^^You better post some discussion to go along with that link, I learned my lesson.

 

[insanebikerboy]

One captain in the article had failed a check ride 7 times!!

I can't imagine what would happen if we failed a Natops/Inst X/Stan check that many times, but I would think it would involve getting the big-boy pants taken away.

 

[picklesuit]

It would be interesting to see how many of these failures are yearly/quarterly checks and how many were during flight school.

Failures in flight school happen, especially check flights. Especially in Primary (or the equivalent thereof). When you get to the "Fleet" (or the Airline) they should diminish and send up larger red flags. I would hazard to guess that the media here is really trying to find someone to blame, and usually the pilot is the first guy in line, quickly followed by maintenance and the COC.

Unfortunately, many times the pilot is at fault. That whole human error thing is hard to get rid of; but we have done a good job both in the civilianand the military sector in removing some of the obstacles to safe flight. CRM has been a great tool, and has started to be used effectively by the airlines as well. ORM may be the largest factor I have seen in several wrecks lately.

The F-18 in SD and the Turbo-prop stall in Buffalo are 2 that stand out in particular. Both involved aircrew putting themselves in difficult and possibly unneccesary situations. The Hornet mishap has been analyzed ad-nauseum here, I won't rehash, but the Colgan Air wreck seems to focus too much on how the pilot(s) reacted and how the equipment may have failed, and not enough on whether they should have diverted in the first place.

I was not there, I am not in the airlines, I understand that the pressures to get customers to a certain airport at a certain time are tremendous. But sometims the desire to "press" is too great and costs lives.

The training is a big part of this equation, and it is hard to objectively grade a pilot's ORM/CRM abilities. You cannot put them in every single situation they may see, and at the end of the day you have to trust them to make the best judgement with the facts that THEY can see. It is too easy to overlook the fact that what is readily available via the black-box and the reconstruction team is not so easily discernable by the Mark-1 Mod-0 eyeball (Mark-1 Mod-1 for you PRK guys) at the time.

So when a guy repeatedly fails NATOPS checks, or the airline guy can't seem to get past that EP sim, it may be time for the FNAEB to step in (or whatever you commercial carrier guys call it) and do a review of the overall situation.

But picking one or two failures over a career and making the guy out to be a shitbag may be a larger step than I am ready to take. Hell, I failed MY first P3C observer check in the fleet; now they let me fly the damn plane.
Pickle

 

[BACONATOR]

... CRM has been a great tool, and has started to be used effectively by the airlines as well...

Just pointing out, that it is starting to be used effectively in the Military. CRM STARTED in the airlines.

 

[Krafty1]

I don't know how common failures are in the military or how they are handled, however on the civilian side it is fairly to common to have two failures just getting to CFI level. As Pickle said it really depends where the failures occurred. We were always taught in flight school if you show up to an airline interview with three pink slips on your record you can still get hired if you explain each one, own up to it, and explain how you learned from it. However once you are flying part 121 and fail one of those rides (or multiple rides) your career is on the line. The regional level really scares me right now for a multitude of reasons right now; low-time pilots, outsourced maintenance (or to the lowest bidder), crazy work schedules (ie commuting), and routes going to the lowest bidder to name a few. Not a good combination but very much a product of the industry right now.

 

[A4sForever]

Some of you won't like this, as it's not P.C., so if it chaps your hide or your tender sensibilities .... move along .... nothing to look at here .... don't read it.

But if you want to hear how 'it was' ... here's the deal:

It used to be 'up or out' ... prepare & move up to the next seat when your seniority allowed, or you were toast ... and if you didn't meet the checkride standards, you were g-o-n-e ... one check; a recheck ... if you busted both, then the next day you were selling shoes @ Penney's. Some of the new-hire 'training'/proficiency checks were designed to 'bust' people w/out a solid bank of experience and/or past proven ability. I've witnessed this personally ... and women and minorities and WEAK WASP males were usually the recipients of these policies/procedures, for a variety of reasons. Some reasons were valid, some were not -- however, ALL 'reasons' could be quantified and were more objective than subjective.

And then -- @ 25-30 years ago, women & minorities started showing up in new-hire training classes in greater numbers -- but they were still frequently individuals with lower skill levels and experience than their WASP-male counterparts, again, for a variety of reasons. As they made their way into 'the show' ... there was a consistent & determined effort on the part of airline management(s) and gov't affirmative action-types to 'get them in the seat', no matter what ... You don't think so??? Then think EEOC and all that flowed from it ... in some cases, 'equality' .... no matter what.

I've been there; I've done that ... I've been on both sides of the grading sheet .... and I know what I'm talking about. If you disagree; that's fine. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid if it makes you feel better about yourself and the fantasy world in which you live & breathe .... and you weren't there ...

Sooooooooooooooooooooooo .... as things progressed, the 'weak' WASP's wanted the same 'more lienient' treatment and repeated 'look-see's' that the marginally qualified 'newbies' were getting: i.e., break after break, busted checkride after busted checkride, look-see after look-see .... until the 'standards' came down to a point where virtually ANYONE w/ a modicum of skills and/or the ability to walk/talk/chew gum ..... 'could pass' ....

The result: fewer 'busts', virtually no one getting 'fired', and the overall dumbing down of the airline piloting profession from a skill-level standpoint. That's why you see guys 'in the seat' and 'in the show' today ..... that would NOT have made the cut yesterday. Most guys fall under the 'big part' of the bell-shaped curve in any case ... but we didn't used to have many under the 'bottom' part of the curve.

REMEMBER: the airlines are not expected to 'teach you how to fly' ... you're already suppose to know how to fly.

Again, race & gender issues aside (as that's not the intent here) .... and I'm sorry to burst anyone's pretty balloons (actually, no I'm not) .... but that's the way it was, that's what happened, and that's the way it is, as a result.

 

[Flash]

It used to be...and then -- @ 25-30 years ago....the 'weak'.....wanted the same 'more lienient' treatment..... until the 'standards' came down to a point where virtually ANYONE w/ a modicum of skills and/or the ability to walk/talk/chew gum ..... 'could pass' ....virtually no one getting 'fired', and the overall dumbing down of the airline piloting profession from a skill-level standpoint. That's why you see guys 'in the seat' and 'in the show' today ..... that would NOT have made the cut yesterday. Most guys fall under the 'big part' of the bell-shaped curve in any case.......but that's the way it was, that's what happened, and that's the way it is, as a result.

Okay, I'll ask the obvious, why has the commercial airline accident rate dropped so low then in the intervening years in this country? I am certain technology has played a role but that can't be all of it. With the exception of some commuter airlines the system seems to be working very well, at least from a mishap perspective.

 

[A4sForever]

Okay, I'll ask the obvious, why has the commercial airline accident rate dropped so low then in the intervening years in this country? I am certain technology has played a role but that can't be all of it. With the exception of some commuter airlines the system seems to be working very well, at least from a mishap perspective.

Tech (you mentioned that), CRM, tech (you mentioned that), better airport facilities, expansion of the flying/WX/'how-to' knowledge data-base, better equipment, tech (you mentioned that), better training TO&E, tech (you mentioned that), and good/better/best instructors ....

And better men than us who paved the way for the rest of us ... sometimes w/ their blood, sweat, and tears.

ALOHA

 

[FlyinRock]

Tech (you mentioned that), CRM, tech (you mentioned that), better airport facilities, expansion of the flying/WX/'how-to' knowledge data-base, better equipment, tech (you mentioned that), better training TO&E, tech (you mentioned that and good/better/best instructors ....

And better men than us who paved the way for the rest of us ... sometimes w/ their blood, sweat, and tears.

A4's
I HAPPEN TO AGREE WITH YOUR POST FROM THE START. Didn't mean to shout but it seemed appropriate so I left it. Like you, I watched from the late 60's while affirmative action took root and saw far too many ill qualified if not downright unqualified people being hired for race/gender. Over time they rose to positions of authority and policy making and still didn't have any good quals or experience.
Like you, I was there, I saw it, I experienced it and I'm not going to try to justify my position to someone who wasn't.
In todays world, I often see young instructors in the civilian side who find out what they don't know when they are challenged to fly instead of cite verse and chapter. That Colgan crash was a result of two pilots who did the wrong things at critical times. They were BS'ing in the cockpit when they should have been paying attention during a snotty approach, and when the aircraft began to stall, their actions indicate they did exactly the wrong thing and exacerbated the problems. CVR spells it out.
Witness the changes in FAR's over the years and the dumbing down of pilots. Hell the whole educational system has gone that direction in my opinion.
A common comment when I am checking a new CFI, "God I wish I had learned that in my basic training." Or, "I didn't know you could do that...". And these are the people who are training the newer generation. And the beat goes on...
Semper Fi from Uganda
Rocky

 

[A4sForever]

^ The voice of experience .... and from someone who's 'been there' and seen the situation evolve/devolve --- take your pick.

Say "hi" to Idi Amin for us ....

 

[CAMike]

Remember "Quality Spread" from the 1980's? It's not always about aviation per se.

I work for a Fortune 100 company in a sales position. My new Area Sales Manager reads at about a 4th grade level and to hear her speak make me cringe. She's clearly a product of 80's Corporate Quality Spread. Thank God I'm going to retire in a few years and be done with this mess.

Quality Spread has never worked -as well intentioned as it almost always is/was. Oh yeah- I'm an American of Mexican Amercian heritage and I get shit from various Dems for my outlook on life and politics.

As my recently deceased dad used to say- "Back when I was a kid, if you were here illegally and committed a crime or pissed someone of authority off- standby. You'll soon find your ass deported by the local police department."

He knew the real deal! He had the guy who slept with his mom(grandma) deported when his father was away working on the railroad! Yeah ,he pissed his mom off something fierce by that fine act, but he was taught by both parents that personal integrity is non-negotiable. Oh Well.

So -Where did we go so wrong as a country? When the lawyers took over, and now they're our elected officals! Revolucion! No wonder they fear the fundamental Second Amendment.

Rant off!

 

[C420sailor]

As my recently deceased dad used to say- "Back when I was a kid, if you were here illegally and committed a crime or pissed someone of authority off- standby. You'll soon find your ass deported by the local police department."

So -Where did we go so wrong as a country? When the lawyers took over, and now they're our elected officals! Revolucion! No wonder they fear the fundamental Second Amendment.

It's because political correctness and compassion is biting us in the ass. Everyone is a winner! Trophies and medals for everyone! We've forgotten about Darwin. We now live in a country where the weak can and do thrive---often at the expense of the strong.

Ass backwards if you ask me.

 

[FlyinRock]

I wonder if that is why I get called a hard ass with no compassion for the weak or non hackers? I'm speaking of my professional reputation as a flight instructor. The military is the LAST place for weaklings to hide out. They only cause the stronger to be in danger.
If I can weed them out early, based on my professional qualifications and hard earned experience, I'm gonna do my part. Goes all the way back to when I was a Marine DI.
Don't misunderstand me, I don't kick people just because I can. I'm very aware of my responsibilities. As many can and will tell you, I've gone way past the line to salvage people I thought were worth it. And I have some pretty high standards compared to the norm. I've put my reputation on the line more than once for men, and women, who I thought could hack it but were going through a tough patch in life.
I'm a conservative someplace to the right of Attila .....
Semper Fi
Rocky

 

[HornyU2]

It's hard to discount the money factor in all of this airline mess.

As management replaced any type of actual leadership and innovation in the arlines, those who could quantify themselves in terms of dollars stood out from the rest. The training department manager who doesn't wash anybody out, from the interview to the flight line, can show the CEO - "Look, I trained this many pilots for this small cost." The guy who washes out the weak-sisters costs more money - initially. But, even though he actually saves the company more money in the long run, it's hard to show his savings on spreadsheets and power point slides - it's a little more intangible. Our airline managers hale from the same generation of financial experts who invested in securities backed by half-million dollar mortgages for $60k/year wage earners. They're not likely to listen to the principles of long-term investments based on a conservative appeal to quality - the kind of investments that pay off huge, but not immediately. They're more interested in gimmicks - like selling a ticket with a major airline name printed on it, but actually flown and operated by a sub-contractor who uses cheap, and less qualified, labor.