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NFOs and the JSF

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bradymccarthy

Registered User
So in 2010 the Joint Strike Fighter is supposed to start replacing the Super Hornet. Since the JSF is a single seat airplane, what is going to happen to the NFOs who still have several years left on their contract? I know the introduction of the JSF is going to happen gradually, but what is the MArine Corps going to do personnel wise?
 

reapergm

Member
Good question. But the Marines dont have the E or F Hornets. So would Marine NFOs still be good to go? Are all Hornets being replaced? Theyd probably have to have the JSF around for alittle to test it out Id presume.
 

DBLang

PLC Candidate
This is the only thing that has me worried going NFO. As it stands right now, if I go for an engineering degree I wont graduate until sometime in 2008. Which means (if i make it of course..) I wouldn't be winged until sometime around 2010.
When are the F-18Ds and Prowlers going away?
What happens to the NFOs if they do?
 

46Driver

"It's a mother beautiful bridge, and it's gon
Whatever timeline you hear about replacement of aircraft, add at least 10 years to it! :) The CH-46 was supposed to have been replaced when - 1982???? If your MOS goes away, then you will be assigned and/or choose another one. By the time that happens, all of you will probably be senior captains and/or junior majors and there are a multitude of important (if less glamorours) specialities the Marine Corps/Navy can use you for (staffs, attaches, etc)
 

riley

Registered User
Marines will have the first operational squadron of JSF aircraft in 2011, the Navy won't have their first operational squadron until 2012 (what is planned right now) If I remember correctly the Brits will have their first operational squadron in 2013, or the end of 2012. I think the current plan is to keep F-18 Ds until at least 2020. (which makes sense - JSFs are not like automobiles - they don't exactly fly off the assembly line.
 

NeoCortex

Castle Law for all States!!!
pilot
The Prowler is going to be replaced by an EF-18 "Growler" so they will still need NFO's I have also read a plan for the F-35 that would have 2 seats, but that might have just been for a trainer, not sure. I wouldn't worry too much, the Navy/Marines are always going to need NFOs

Ben
 

ben

not missing sand
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
I just presented a project on the JSF for a Naval Science class... I've done lot's of research. To my knowledge, the JSF will complement (not replace) the new Super Hornet, but it will replace the older Hornet designs. In all the research I did I never saw anything about a 2-seat version. They're still making changes from the test aircraft to what will become the operational version so some things aren't set in stone yet.

Look here for more info:
http://www.lmtas.com/products/combat_air/x-35/index.html (Use the internal links, there's LOTS of info if you look around a bit.)

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/jsf/ (a British site)

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/jsf.htm

http://www.jsf.mil/IEFrames.htm
 

NeoCortex

Castle Law for all States!!!
pilot
I'll see if I can find that artical that I read. The problem is that there is so much old and inaccurate info out there about it. As you can see by my Avitar, I'm a big 35 fan!!

Ben
 

riley

Registered User
bdcgeib is correct in that there are not two seat versions planned for the JSF.

From the last material I read, the Corps is planning on going to an all-STOVL fixed wing force (replacing the F-18 and Harrier with the F-35 - not sure about the EA6 - but I'm pretty sure it is being replaced as well). Last I heard the Corps wasn't getting any super hornets - they would only be for the Navy.

Most changes to the JSF have already taken place - final shape of airframe, basic design of most systems, etc - right now the main focus is on weight - only minor changes from here on out as it is approaching critical design review and first flight in 2005.

The main thing to think on, potentialnfo, is that it will be a long time before the F-35 completely replaces the other airframs - you'll probably be retired by then, or flying a desk, which is just as bad...
 

airwinger

Member
pilot
I believe that politics plays more of a role in appropriations than military necessity. If we have enough NFO's as generals then we WILL see a two seat JSF. If you think otherwise look at the F-18D's and F-18F's.
 

riley

Registered User
Airwinger, I see your point - but I'm not sure that is the reason why we would have two seat F-35s. Wouldn't technology and work load for required mission types be the main reason for that??
 

riley

Registered User
Yes, the F-16 has a two seat version - the B and D models. The U.S. uses them for trainers and as chase planes (most of the video seen of the X-35 was taken from a two seat F-16. The first of a new lot of F-16s for Israel was just delivered - I think most, if not all, are two seat variants - but both Israel and Greece, which also made new F-16 orders, have additional electronics packages in what looks like a "spine" running from the canopy to the vertical stabilizer. The second seat is for a WSO and is not meant as a trainer.

I work for Lockheed on the JSF program and was there before the SDD contract award - I have not heard of any plans for a two seat model of the F-35.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
When the Israelis signed on to the JSF this summer they expressed an interest in a two seat version. They are the only ones to have done so and they may not get what they want. Lockheed says that the simulator is so good that they willl not need a trainer version.

As for the future of Marine NFO's, I think it is relatively secure until 2015-2020 timeframe at least. When the Marines started getting Hornets and retiring A-6's they made a concious decision to purchase F/A-18D's (two-seaters) to replace the Intruders. This made the short-legged Hornet even more starved for gas but it adds another set of eyes in the cockpit, which in many cases is invaluable. The D's do the FAC-A (Forward Air Controller-Airborne) mission very well. The Marines care about this becase they call in Close air support for the grunts on the ground, and the grunts are everything to them. The NFO in the back is the main reason they can do this. F-14's have done it too.

The Marines have no plan to replace the EA-6B Prowler right now, only the Navy. The Marines plan on flying the Prowler until 2012-2015. I have no idea how they will manage it because we are barely managing to keep them flying now. The Marines have a long tradition of tactical EW aircraft and I don't think they will give it up easy. They are reluctant to get the EA-18 because they want to go to one jet airframe. They have looked at making an electronic attack bird but it would be hard to do with only one guy. Who knows what they will do?

As for technology allowing only one guy to do the mission, I would disagree with that. I have a bias since I am an NFO but I will give you some examples. The French Air Force (don't snicker) changed their orders for the Rafale from almost all single seat to 2/3's two seaters after the Gulf War when their main strike planes, the Jaguar's, had difficulty hitting their targets due to high workload (the French are damn good, when they want to be). The French Navy did the same thing, from 60 single seat to 15 single and 45 two seat. The Israeli's have ordered 100 F-16I's, two seat strike versions. So have the Singaporeans and the Greeks. The main reason many air force's get rid of the backseat, too much money. It costs a lot to train even an NFO/Navigator. I think they lose out in the end though.
 
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