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No Scholarship = No Commission

K

Knob

Registered User
Hey yall, I went down to the cid with my folks this past week to visit charleston since im starting hell week on saturady but while i was down there i went and talked a LT in the navy department. he told me that the navy is really downsizing by a lot. I was hoping to get a commission through the advanced college contract program but he told me that program has basically become a standby program. Where if theres an opening then they will take someone from the contract program. Basically if i want to be in the navy then i have to be on a scholarship. But its so incredibly hard to get a scholarship nowadays especially since the navy is only really looking for guys with an engineer degree. Im majoring in Criminal Justice with a minor in military affairs. He told me that he has seen guys with a 3.7 gpa in CJ or English or something get passed up on a scholarship to a guy with a 2.5 in engineering. According to him its because there are so many ensigns in the navy right now. If i cant be a pilot, i would be happy being a swo.

I then went and tried to talk to a captain in the marine department. Well, I made two mistakes. First i said i went and talked to the navy about scholarships and my second mistake was when i told him that i wanted to be a pilot. He gave me a whole speech on that i have to want to be a marine first pilot second. He didnt really tell if i needed a scholarship to get commissioned or not. I got the whole marine speech and then he basically told me to leave.

Finally, I went and talked to a major in the army department and he told me that the army is the only branch that is expanding. He told me that the army is giving out scholarships like crazy and i wouldnt even need a scholarship to commission. He also said that the helicopter pilot program is competative but no where nearly as competative as the navy, marine, or air force program.

I didnt have time to talk to the air force.

So have yall heard anything like what the Navy LT told me as far as cutting back that much? Are the Marines and Air Force cutting back just as much as the Navy?
 
J

jai5w4

.
Couple of things:

Sounds like you are up in the air about exactly what it is you want to do in the armed forces. Clearly you desire a commission, but I think if you could figure out exactly what you want to do WITH your commission you would be better able to figure out which service would be best to go after. Do you really want fly a plane/drive a ship/drive a tank/fly a helo/etc. Then figure out which service you would be happiest in with your commission.

Yes, I have seen the tightening down of the College Program by the Navy over the past couple of years. But I would caution you against making any hasty decision with regards to your current major (which actually sounds pretty solid to me). Don't go changing things b/c of what one LT says the "Navy wants." Sure, engineering degrees are great, but you don't need one to A) pick up a scholarship or B) successfully get a commission.

Do some soul-searching and more research and I think you will be able to answer some of your own questions.

Best of luck. :)

-jai5w4
 
K

Knob

Registered User
im not changing my major, CJ has been something ive always been interested in. I actually thought about changing to an engineer major but I just couldnt get interested enough into it. Im getting the CJ major incase I cant do anything with the military and its more like my backup plan to go into Law Enforcement. But I definitley want to fly. It doesnt matter whether its jet, turbo prop, or helo.
 
ChunksJR

ChunksJR

Retired.
pilot
Contributor
BlueEagle77 said:
If i cant be a pilot, i would be happy being a swo.
Click to expand...

I guess that's good...and it's good to focus on the service aspect. Don't aim any lower than what you really want though...and if you don't get it, well, then that's ok too...but at least you tried.

I then went and tried to talk to a captain in the marine department. Well, I made two mistakes. First i said i went and talked to the navy about scholarships and my second mistake was when i told him that i wanted to be a pilot.
Click to expand...

I hate when they do that. You know what...you didn't make ANY mistakes...if he's not interested in what you want to do than screw him. The Corps is a great option and the Marines I've met I hated when I was 18 yo, but have really respected them and their way of life since I've grown up. Plus you will really never find a better model of military bearing than about 75% of the marines I know. Sorry you had this experience, and if you are interested in the Corps, talk to another officer recruiter...since you're not on scholarship, there are better/other ways to go about getting a commission.

Finally, I went and talked to a major in the army department and he told me that the army is the only branch that is expanding. He told me that the army is giving out scholarships like crazy and i wouldnt even need a scholarship to commission. He also said that the helicopter pilot program is competative but no where nearly as competative as the navy, marine, or air force program.
Click to expand...

Be careful with this one. Like the Air Force (former Army Air Corps) there are a lot more jobs availible once you're onboard. When I commissioned (2001), you had a better chance of flying in the Navy/MC than you did with the Air Force...but it's true that the Army is expanding. Any doubt on that, just do a search above on "IA" or "Individual Augment."

The Army helo pilots (95% of the ones that actually fly above the minimums required to remain flying) are Warrant Officers...meaning no degree required...pay is less and the commissioned officers in the Army are more Aviation Support Officers than Aviatiors.

Good luck, hope that helps a bit.
 
gdd05

gdd05

Registered User
Just remember that a lot can happen during the four years that you are in school. The needs of every service is constantly changing. So keep your head up and focus on whats important right now, and that is getting through "hell week" and your freshman year. There will be plenty of oppurtunities for you later on.
 
gregsivers

gregsivers

damn homeowners' associations
pilot
I don't know about the College Program being reigned in; when I was at Norwich from 2000-04 there were several people who either picked up scholarships from it or just got commissioned from it. The Navy gives out 3 years ROTC scholarships as well, several people at my school received those after freshman year. Jai's advice was excellent. But if you want to go Navy, get involved with the ROTC program there freshman year and let them know you're interested, if you show potential and are a good candidate, the staff at the unit will certainly work with you.
 
K

KBayDog

Well-Known Member
CJ, huh? Since you seem up in the air about the military (other than a desire to fly), have you considered the South Carolina Police Corps as an alternative?
 
FLYMARINES

FLYMARINES

Doing Flips and Shit.
pilot
BlueEagle77 said:
im not changing my major, CJ has been something ive always been interested in. I actually thought about changing to an engineer major but I just couldnt get interested enough into it. Im getting the CJ major incase I cant do anything with the military and its more like my backup plan to go into Law Enforcement. But I definitley want to fly. It doesnt matter whether its jet, turbo prop, or helo.
Click to expand...

Definitely don't change your major because of what this LT said. If Criminal Justice is what your really into, then major in it. I started off in engineering and hated it, it just wasn't for me. I didn't do real well in school because of that. Now I'm majoring in political science and I actually enjoy going to class, and I'm doing much better, and now I got selected for SNA in the Marines. I didn't do ROTC and am not majoring in engineering. There are many ways to get a commission and you don't have to be in ROTC to get one. Do well in school and you could apply for BDCP or PLC. There was a guy in my platoon at OCS from the Citadel, and another one who was in the Corps at Texas A&M, so just because you go to a military school doesn't mean you can't do an OCS-type program. If you want to fly, just choose the branch of service you want to fly in. If you want to be a Marine, fly in the Marines, if you want to be a Naval Officer, go Navy. Go where you think you would fit in the best. You have a good minset. Do well in school and you will go far.
 
K

Knob

Registered User
The Army helo pilots (95% of the ones that actually fly above the minimums required to remain flying) are Warrant Officers...meaning no degree required...pay is less and the commissioned officers in the Army are more Aviation Support Officers than Aviatiors.
Click to expand...

What do u mean by more of the officers are aviation support? I know that a lot of Warrant Officers are the gunners on the helo's but I thought the officiers were the pilots though.

Would it be worth contacting an officer recruiter or just go by what the officers at the cid are telling me?
 
ChunksJR

ChunksJR

Retired.
pilot
Contributor
BlueEagle77 said:
What do u mean by more of the officers are aviation support? I know that a lot of Warrant Officers are the gunners on the helo's but I thought the officiers were the pilots though.

Would it be worth contacting an officer recruiter or just go by what the officers at the cid are telling me?
Click to expand...

In the Army, most of the pilots that actually fly, are Warrent Officers. There are (regular) commissioned officers that fly, but not much. Most are used in support roles.

Joining the service is a huge committment...it's kinda like a serious disease (in a good way)...get a second, and third, and fourth, etc. opinion...especially if it's not something that you're 100% sure you want to do...becuase it's a lot of time commitment even to get in.
 
gregsivers

gregsivers

damn homeowners' associations
pilot
KBayDog said:
CJ, huh? Since you seem up in the air about the military (other than a desire to fly), have you considered the South Carolina Police Corps as an alternative?
Click to expand...

A large number of people at my school, Norwich, who got commissions were CJ majors. Many of them had the desire of going on to the FBI or another federal agency after the military, since having that experience under your belt really helps.
 
jmiller82

jmiller82

Registered User
BlueEagle77,

I, too, went through the same obstacles you're going through. I was about a week away from signing a contract with the Army for OCS, when my recruiter from the Navy called me and notified me of my selection! Woo-hoo!

Some things to keep in mind:

1). The Army, as all have said above, is indeed expanding. The IA is a good indicator, as well as some of the UAV programs (they need pilots there too), and the simple nature of their task (ground forces). However, it is true that the majority (at least 85%) of the Army's pilots are Warrant Officers. Most fo the officers that are pilots in the Army (not Aviation Support Officers) are from West Point (US Military Academy). That being said, there are still pilot programs (both rotary and fixed wing) for officers in the Army.
Now, the Army uses a totally different selection process for their OCS. You go to a regular recruiter's office (rather than w/ the Navy, an officer recruiting office), where you will get the speech about how you must first enlist (think Marines - TBS) to go to OCS (this is true, but I will explain in a bit). They will compile a packet, just as the Navy does, with all of your info. The background check goes in the form of the SF86 (Nat'l Security Questionnaire) and some other local agency check forms. The application form is the DA Form 61 (links all at the bottom). You also need some other miscellaneous items (i.e. 8x10 photo of yourself attention - dressed nicely, LOR's - 3 to 6, etc.). Also, the Army is the only service that requires OCS applicants to take the ASVAB (which is not as challenging as the ASTB in my opinion). I guess this goes back to the initial enlistment requirement and the foundation of a soldier in general. The other difference is that the Army uses a slection board (usually consisting of about 3-5 junior officers and a chairman (field grade officer O-4+), that will decide your fate with the Army. It is more personal and easier to "argue" your case than say, sending a packet with "numbers and credentials" to CNRC forthe Navy, but to each service her own. I would recommend checking out this site for some more in-depth info about the eligibility and requirements.
Now, onto the enlisted topic I mentioned earlier: The Army requires you to swear in as an enlisted recruit (just as the other branches do), then you will recieve orders to BCT (Basic Combat Training), and then to OCS. Think of it as the same as the Marines (TBS to OCC). Also, you will NOT be guaranteed to get your choice of MOS (Military Occupational Specialty), but you will be given a "wish list" of ten of your favorites branches (the Army calls them branches, but they are just like communities). The deciding factor is most likely CA (Combat Arms) and CSS (Combat Support), and what the Army will need at the time. CA consists of MOS's such as Aviation (AV), Armor (AR), Field Artillery (FA), Infantry (IN), Chemical (CM), Combat Engineering (EN), and some others. CSS consists of Military Intelligence (MI), Medical (AN), Finance (FI), Quartermaster/Supply (QM), Transportation (TC), Signal (SC), Military Police (MP), Ordnance (OD), and some others. As you may well know, there are some MOS's that females can't serve in, so the odds of you getting a CSS (not as "engaged" in the fight) are now smaller, due to the fact that they must accomodate eligible females for CSS. Also, the latest "unofficial" percentages that you'd go CA (most likely Infantry) are something like 65%. Military Intel is the most popular of choices, but probably has a ratio of 2:25 (4%) applicants getting assigned there. Again, do your research, as some have stated, and you'll be better prepared when you go to the recruiter's office. The total duration of OCS, including BCT, is 23 weeks total (not counting any class wait times between BCT and OCS). Usually, if you're already picked up for OCS, they send you to BCT at Fort Benning, GA, since OCS is only held there. I'll include some attachments and links that will help you with your research.

2). The Navy is the most selective (I would say now) of all of the branches when it comes to URL (unrestricted line) officers, which would include aviators/pilots. That being said, after having talked to at least three current or former aviators from each of the major branches (excluding the Marines), I've heard the same thing - the Navy has a more extensive training system, and because of it, most of the guys agreed that their pilots are better suited to perform the missions they're tasked with. The Navy selection process, however, takes a lot longer than the rest, so you need to be patient. With that said, I'll let you form your own opinion about the Navy itself, and this site (AW) is a good place to start. Some other sites to keep in mind are listed at the bottom.

3). Indeed, the Air Force is downsizing, according to the recruiters. I went to the Air Force recruiter's office nearby when I was in your situation (about a year ago), and I was basically told that the Air Force only wants professional or engineering degree graduates, specifically for the Medical/Dental communities and for the Aviation communities. You have to take their version of the ASTB, called the AFOQT (Air Force Officer Qualification Test), which will rank you in similar categories as the ASTB, with Pilot, Navigator, Academic Aptitude, Verbal, and Quantitative scores. I think it's good for your lifetime, so no expiration. I took mine way back when I was considering AFROTC while I was in college, so I actualyl had a good score to go off of. However, because of the Air Force downsizing its manpower (so I was told), there are less billets and training positions available for incoming officers. This is evidenced, as someone said, by the AF being heavy on 2LT's. Also, an indicator might be that the Army has its own program to grab up recently seperated AF officers or those that would be pursuing civilian positions (called Blue to Green, I believe), which is also an indicator of the Army's expansion. I didn't get very far on researching the Air Force, as I was a bit discouraged after hearing the news about low accessions. Basically, the AF is content with only letting a few guys in through OTS (Officer Training School), and relying upon its bread and butter methods for officer accessions - the Air Force Academy and AFROTC. Try this site if you are interested in learning some more about the Air Force and its OTS program.

4). As MANY have said before, do some soul-searching. You have to be ready to accept the fact that you want to be an officer in the United States Military. Soemthing that helped me when trying to choose a service (although I'll admit I'm a Navy brat), was if you look at alot of the required reading on AW, there is a section about rank structure: While the name of the rank might differ, the collar insignia and the rate are always the same from service to service. We're always united in one common goal: to defend the United States, its citizens, and its interests, regardless of branch of service. Keep that in mind when the recruiters boast which service is better than the other..

And now for some links: :D

NAVY:
  • Airwarriors - hands down the BEST site for Naval Aviation and how to become a US Naval Officer
  • Navy.com - The official site for Navy information for those interested in joining (Click on Find a recruiter up top to select an Officer recruiter).
  • US Navy - Good, informative site about the Navy.
  • Commander, Naval Recruiting Command (CNRC) - a good place to start to contact an Officer recruiter (Click on the closest city to you in the upper left corner, to select an NRD - Naval Recruiting District).
  • CNRC General Officer list - Good information on Naval Officer duties, requirements, and careers.
  • US Navy OCS - Official site of Navy Officer Candidate School (OCS).
  • Navy Forms Online - For those difficult to find official forms and publications (UNCLASS) that are often required by your recruiter.
  • Chief of Naval Air Training (CNATRA) - Official site, hosted at NAS Pensacola, for the US Navy's flight school and aviation training programs.
  • Surface Warfare Officer School - Official site, hosted by NS Newport, for its Surface Warfare Officer training programs.
  • USNavyOCS.com - Good secondary forum for general information about becoming a US Naval Officer.
  • SailorBob.com - Another good forum about what to expect in the Navy.
  • US Navy Installations - Official listing, as done by the US Navy, of its worldwide installations and bases.
  • US Navy Public Affairs Library - Official Public Affairs Library of the US Navy (Contains good (UNCLASS) information about the US Navy).

ARMY:
  • ArmyOCS.com - Good place to start to find some information about becoming an Army Officer
  • US Army - Official site of the US Army, and the place to go for those wanting to join "The Army of One".
  • US Army Recruiting Command (USAREC) - Official site of US Army Recruiting (this will take you to a link outlining the Army Recruiting Brigades & Battalions for Officer recruiting).
  • Army.com - Groupie-like site for those interested or amused by the Army.
  • US Army OCS - Official site, hosted at Fort Benning, for the US Army's Officer Candidate School.
  • Army Warrant Officer School - Official site, hosted by USAREC, for the US Army's Warrant Officer Recruiting.
  • Special Forces - Official site for USASOC (US Army Special Operations Command) with information on how to join (Night Stalkers).
  • Army Aviation - Official site, hosted at Fort Rucker, for Army Aviation.
  • USArmyAviation.com - Good, informative site about Aviation in the Army.
  • Army Flight School - Unofficial site with some information about the Army's flight school.
  • USMilitary.About.com - Army OCS information.
  • Army Publishing Directorate - For those hard to find, official (UNCLASS) documents, required by the recruiters.
  • List of US Army Units and Installations - Official list as compiled by the US Army, of its worldwide units, activities, and installations.

AIR FORCE:
  • Air Force Link - Official site for the US Air Force.
  • US Air Force - Official site of the US Air Force, for those wishing to join.
  • AirForceOTS.com - Good starting point for Air Force information and information on becoming an Air Force Officer.
  • US Air Force OTS - Official site of the US Air Force's Officer Training School (OTS).
  • Air Force e-Publishing - For those hard to find (UNCLASS) documents and forms that are often required by the recruiter.
  • Air Force Recruiting Service - Official site (intended for recruiters) for the US Air Force's Recruiting.
  • Air Force Officer Jobs - Air Force Personnel Center's (AFPC) site for Officer careers and job descriptions (Click on the appropriate link under "Assignments & Jobs").
  • USAF Installations Page - Unofficial site for a listing of USAF installations, both domestic and worldwide.

GENERAL MILITARY:

Sorry for the length of this, post, but I hope it will answer some of your questions (when in doubt, SEARCH!). While, I haven't included EVERYTHING that I researched and found out, this is a good start. All of this information is accurate to the best of my knowledge as of posting, minus a few misspellings and typos. I'm sure everyone viewing will also update/correct as necessary, so stay posted to AW to get corrections, etc. Other than that, good luck with your search, and I hope you find what you're looking for.. :)

As this topic/thread has been brought up before ("What Service/Branch is best for me?"), I think it would be in the interest of both other AW members and potential recruits/candidates that a mod sticky or post this in a necessary place, with additions of course!
 
jmiller82

jmiller82

Registered User
FLYMARINES said:
jm 74 - No Marine Corps links? :eek:
Click to expand...

I figured most of the Marine Corps information was about the same as the Navy, with a few minor changes, plus I didn't want to post the wrong information. I figured alot of the guys on here that are Marines could add some more info.. :D I honestly have no clue, other than TBS and OCC (and then subsequent API/Primary, etc with the Navy), about what the Marine Corps program is like.
 
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