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North Vietnamese Aces Article

Bevo16

Registered User
pilot
The article is crap. If Diego Zampini wrote a for a newspaper, it would be Pravda. He does not have enough credibility to get hired for the Sun or National Enquirer, but could probably get on at the New York Times. He has the requisite hate for America.

I have had personal experience with some of his work, and how some of his stories on the Russian Aces of the Korean War. Basically, those guys claimed several hundred % higher kill rate than they could have possibly had. In order for the Russian "aces" numbers to be correct, they would have had to shoot down every single US Aircraft lost in the war and then some. It's just fantasy.

Diego Zampini has no problem taking these statements and publishing them as fact, but they aren't. He is re-writing history, and it is bullshit sprinkled with a few factual elements. Award his work zero points, because we are all stupider for reading it.

Here is a link to an AF guy who calls him out and give some specific stats and examples:

http://sabre-pilots.org/classics/v131help

I can't cut and paste the conversations that I have had with DPMO analysts regarding these issues, but take my word for the fact that they do not hold a high opinion of Diego Zampini.
 

Mumbles

Registered User
pilot
Contributor
Concur with Bevo. This guy's playing fast and loose with facts notwithstanding, he seems to go to great lengths to glorify the heroic exploits of the People's Pilots. I'd probably put Diego right up there in the Pantheon with Bill Ayers, David Axelrod and Dick Durbin.
 

bunk22

Super *********
pilot
Super Moderator
Concur with the above. Both countries probably played with the numbers a bit to get a higher kill ratio but if you compare our actual losses to their claims, only three of their pilots are aces. I say only 3 as that's more pilot aces than we "officially" had. That article does list in () the number that supposedly matchs our records but it doesn't match some of the other stuff (maybe more accurate) out there. Their three aces were all Mig-21 pilots; number one guy is Nguyen Van Coc, claims 9 but only 6 match our records. The next two are Nguyen Tien Sam with 5 and Nguyen Duc Soat with 5. Coc claims 9, Sam claims 5 and Soat 6. This is according to the latest I've seen from two lists, one in the Osprey series...which isn't always exact either but I think the best thus far. If accurate, then of the 20 claimed, 16 match our records. From what I've seen of Nguyen Van Bay, it looks like he took part in 4 kills that match our records but his flight is listed, so not sure who actually made the victory. I think he was the shooter and victor of at least two of the four. Van Coc was shot down on 2 Jan 67 during Operation Bolo but survived and shot down all of his opponets in 67-68. Sam and Soat shot down all of their oppenents in '72. Sam was shot down on 9 Dec 72 by LtCol Beckers/1st LT Griffin flying an F-4E with a combo of an AIM-9/20mm. He survived as well.

As for the Korean War, even the Osprey series is bunk, no pun intended. It's known that the total loss of Sabre's, for all cause in the war is around 210 or so. That's mishap, AAA, losses to Migs. The Russians simple did not shot down 600+ Sabre's. They admit something like 320 losses against Sabre's. I've read that the Chinese lost about 200 or so to Sabre's and the Koreans 60 or so. That's what they admitted of course. That puts the number close to 600 Migs shot down for about 110 Sabre losses....I think that's around the number we've admitted. That's a 5 to 6:1 kill ratio. Entirely believable, even with the honcho Russians.
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Concur with Bevo. This guy's playing fast and loose with facts notwithstanding, he seems to go to great lengths to glorify the heroic exploits of the People's Pilots. I'd probably put Diego right up there in the Pantheon with Bill Ayers, David Axelrod and Dick Durbin.

Dr. Itsvan Toperczer, whose earlier work is referenced in link, isn't a whole lot better. It is interesting to hear what the other side clams. Not sure if their pilots overstated the claims or the propagada machine si it for them.

That said, the North Vietnamese did put up a fight and attrited considerable numbers of US aircraft through a combination of AAA (vast majority), SAMs and MiGs. It was a wakeup call for a superpower to be challenged by an Air Force and IADs that was created literally overnight albeit with considerable help from Communist Superpower(s).
 

bunk22

Super *********
pilot
Super Moderator
Dr. Itsvan Toperczer, whose earlier work is referenced in link, isn't a whole lot better. It is interesting to hear what the other side clams. Not sure if their pilots overstated the claims or the propagada machine si it for them.

That said, the North Vietnamese did put up a fight and attrited considerable numbers of US aircraft through a combination of AAA (vast majority), SAMs and MiGs. It was a wakeup call for a superpower to be challenged by an Air Force and IADs that was created literally overnight albeit with considerable help from Communist Superpower(s).

The only kills to look at are the ones which match our records. Toperczar listed every Mig-21 claim in his Ospreay but highlighted the ones that match at least. Certainly some of these authors info has to be taken with a grain of salt.
 
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