OCS, Flight Training, and Vision

[kazom]

Hello all,

I’ve been reading through this forum in recent weeks and have found it to be an excellent resource, so I’ve finally decided to give in, sign up, and post. I’m considering joining the Navy, with my primary intention to fly. A passion to serve my country serves as further motivation.

A quick background, I graduated with a BS in Electrical Engineering and have been working in the field for just over a year now (I’m 24 years old). I recently attained my ATP and have a reasonable amount of flight time (~1800 hrs). Assuming I cut it at OCS, made it through flight training, AND got decent high performance turbine time, my goal within the Navy would be to ultimately make it to NTPS.

But all this is not without uncertainty of course, which is why I come to this forum just as I have questioned many others! My biggest concern, as is with many, is vision. I am unsure as to what my 20/xx vision is (I can assume it to be around 20/300 or 20/400), but my required correction to get to 20/20 is -3.75 sphere and -0.75 cylinder for each eye. Digging through the Navy and AF medical waiver manuals it looks as though this puts me just outside limits of what is waiverable to wear corrective lenses (glasses or soft contact lenses, SCLs) but well within pre-op limits for PRK. In all honesty, I want to avoid messing with my eyes at all costs, which is why I don’t jump right in and get the surgery. For those that are willing to read through this, I have a few questions. I know a lot of these have been asked in the past on this and other forums, but a lot of those posts (at least that I saw) were usually a few years old, and we all know how the military rapidly changes….also if there’s anyone here who has been a situation similar to mine I’d love to hear it.

1. Considering my eye specs, is there any way I can get out of surgery and just use corrective lenses but still fly? What has surprised me in this regard is finding out that even fighter pilots nowadays are actually able to wear glasses in the cockpit! What surprises me even more is the disparity of knowledge between various people; how some still think god-given eagle eyes are still a requirement to be a military pilot.

2. If I have to settle for the surgery, is it more advisable to get it well before OCS and be good to go, or wait and let the Navy “take care of it?” I’ve seen mixed answers on this. Some say do it before instead of risking any wait period (with the most time coming from healing) between completing OCS and beginning flight training. Others say it is safer to let the Navy do it and not risk disapproval of a civilian operation.

3. As for anyone here who has had the surgery, or knows people who have had the surgery, what are your thoughts on it? Is it the best thing ever, and have you seen many others with successful results? Are there any people you know of that have been medically disqualified due to a bad result from the procedure, or worse yet, disabled?

4. Although all my questions are geared towards those currently serving in the Navy due to the nature of how rapidly the military changes, this question is especially for those guys. What is the current state of naval aviation? Is it really in a decline? I know F-14s got decommissioned several years back, and P-3s are on their way out as well. It also seems as though the Navy isn’t exactly jumping on the F-35 (last I heard they only ordered 4 or so!). Also heard back in the ’05 timeframe of significant dwindling in pilot slots, also possibilities of mothballing carriers more recently.

5. Assuming I complete OCS, but get screwed out of flying for whatever reason (washed out of training, eye reasons, etc.), I will still need to fulfill my commitment from what I understand (I recall 6 years or so for non-pilot, and 8 or 10 years for pilot) and will be given other non-flying duties to fulfill this. What kind of treatment can I expect from the Navy? Would an electrical engineering degree allow me to be placed in a position that would actually use that, such as radar systems, weapon systems, etc? I know there’s always demand for EEs in the civilian world, does this translate to the military world? Or should I expect being a cook in the cafeteria on an aircraft carrier as a possibility as well?

All in all, I understand that nothing in life is risk-free. If I have to get the surgery, then in my opinion that would be the big gamble, and probably one I would not be willing to take. Aside from that, the risk of not flying for 6 years (or however many it is) is unattractive, but not detrimental if I’m doing something interesting whilst serving my country. However, I would not go out of my and leave what I’m doing now knowing that I will not be flying for the Navy in the first place.

I’m currently studying for the ASTB and gearing myself up physically for OCS, but I’m not doing either at full throttle until I make up my mind with regard to my eyes. I’ll be contacting an officer recruiter in a few days. I know with my age things are getting pretty tight and I have to make up my mind soon, so hopefully this forum can help me out. Thanks for your time and I appreciate any answers.

 

[ra25093]

I got PRK about 6 months ago. Recovery sucked for a few days (more for me than most because I had a bandage lens go missing and that hurts a LOT), but after that it was certainly one of the best decisions I've ever made. PRK is a common surgery and has a low complication rate. Everybody I know personally who's had the surgery has been very pleased with it.

Haven't gotten in yet so this is all from what I've read rather than personal experience: the pilots wearing corrective lenses almost certainly were commissioned before needing them. You have to fit the entry standards before going in.

And IIRC the wings plus 6/8 commitment starts when you get your wings (that is, once you're through flight training), your initial contract is something like 4 years after commission. So if you wash out of flight school, you're on the hook for 4 years IF they decide to keep you, and these days that's not a given. They might reclass you to another designator, they might just let you go.

But after you get your commission, if they keep you, it'll be as an officer. So if they moved you to SWO, you'd have to deal with everything about being a SWO, not just radar or weapons. You won't be a cook though.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

But all this is not without uncertainty of course, which is why I come to this forum just as I have questioned many others! My biggest concern, as is with many, is vision. I am unsure as to what my 20/xx vision is (I can assume it to be around 20/300 or 20/400), but my required correction to get to 20/20 is -3.75 sphere and -0.75 cylinder for each eye. Digging through the Navy and AF medical waiver manuals it looks as though this puts me just outside limits of what is waiverable to wear corrective lenses (glasses or soft contact lenses, SCLs) but well within pre-op limits for PRK.

Saying you are "just outside the limits" is like saying Chumlee from Pawn Stars is "just a couple pounds overweight", you are WAY outside the limits, the max uncorrected in the worse eye can be no greater than 20/40 and must be correctable to 20/20, can't say about the USAF.

BTW where did you find that info?

 

[jtmedli]

BTW where did you find that info?

He's probably looking at the 'corrective lenses' thing for those of us that are already winged. Your vision can degrade to 20/200 or something like that and you'll just wear glasses or contacts to fly. The 20/4o Rx is what NAMI requires to let you start flight school.

And don't worry, you'll be just fine in flight school. Just do things 'The Navy Way' and do what they tell you to do. With that much flight time and turbine time, primary should be a joke to you (assuming you don't fuck it away by being an asshole).

FWIW, the 'current state of Naval Aviation' is more of a result of the 'the current state of the military in general'. The PC-ness and 'you can do no wrong or we'll crucify you' attitude is a result of the times and the entire military trying to save face as a whole. Naval Aviation certainly has had it's own scandals (Tailhook '91 for example) but our golden-winged forefathers didn't cause everything that is going on right now. We certainly still go out, party, and have a good time.

edited: because I'm an idiot and can't type right now.

 

[MGoBrew11]

Yeah, as has been said, you're not even close to eligible for getting in without eye surgery. But that's okay, if you were borderline theyd still say no. They stick to their guns on those kind of limits.

That being said, PRK is pretty simple and the best money I ever spent. Even if I weren't in the program, I wouldn't regret getting it done. If you're going to get it done, get it done now and start applying ASAP. They Navy will not pay for it as you are applying for a desirable job. OCS is different than ROTC or the Academy....you're not on the hook yet and they have more than enough qualified applicants trying to get in. I've never heard of anyone that had the surgery and was then dq because of the surgery...I'm sure it has happened in the past but I know a lot of guys at OCS and in my squadron have had it done.

As far as the current state of naval aviation, I'll just say getting paid to fly, even in primary, is way more fun than getting paid to do something else. They still need pilots and will need them for many years.

If you wash out of flight school for academics/performance you're probably just separating if you're an OCS grad. That is based on anecdotal evidence only.

 

[kazom]

Thanks to all for the replies

@ra25093 thanks for the straightforward answer. I know one person who has had PRK also and the have the same opinion as you do, so it does sound encouraging.

@NavyOffRec as to what I was referencing, it's not the straight vision requirements, I'm not even considering that. It was the Navy medical waiver manual, which pretty much matches the Air Force med waiver manual in many regards.

@jtmedli you're right as to what I was looking at. I think it was 20/200 for pilot and 20/400 for navigator, along those lines. In reference to what you say about flight school, that does sound encouraging. I guess I do have to keep in mind that there are still plenty of people that go in with no pilot experience. And I know what you mean about "throwing it away" I've heard of a lot of guys who do have pilot experience, like regional guys, thinking they know everything and getting washed out as a result. I've never approached anything in life like that and certainly don't look at military flight training in that way. I've been through a couple type ratings so I can assume that flight training is similar throughout in that you're drinking from a firehose, have some sim work, etc.

@brenbuck totally agree with the borderline thing. They'll just say no and move to the next person. I'm guessing you got PRK also and are a pilot? Did you go the OCS route? Thanks for the encouraging outlook on PRK also, even if I get it however, I'll still have to pray that I'm not the 1 or 0.1% or whatever that has a complication!

Looking at all the replies, it seems the common denominator is the Navy does accept civilian PRK procedures, I just probably have to make sure that wherever I get it is "acceptable." Also seems that if I don't cut it even in flight training the Navy may just let me go, or at most make me do 4 years, and that would be doing something interesting at least.

Played phone tag with several recruiters trying to find the nearest officer recruiter. Based on the few I talked to, they weren't familiar with how PRK relates to everythin. So I guess my follow-on question would be, what kind of timeline/process/paperwork am I looking at if I get civilian PRK and how that relates to OCS and flight training? Thanks again for all the replies!

 

[MGoBrew11]

Yeah, I'm currently in primary. Still a pilot wannabe but inching closer to the finish line. I never had any pilot time before the Navy and I'm probably doing average. Most SNAs I know either had no prior time or not enough to really matter. As has been said, guys with a lot of hours generally have a leg up on those that don't in the beginning of primary. If you do what they tell you to do and you study, you will have no problems.

I did go to OCS with PRK. Basically, the important thing with PRK is to document EVERYTHING. Pre-op results, post-op results and every little checkup. If you can give the Navy all the paperwork they need, you'll be golden.

None of the recruiters I dealt with had any clue how the PRK stuff worked either. For the most part I was informing them about stuff I had read on here or the waiver manual and they got confirmation. Be persistent, but don't be a dick. The first recruiter I worked with tried to tell me I would never be a pilot because I was not eligible for PRK. He was obviously dead wrong. I had to point this out politely to the recruiting office.

As far as timing goes, when I went through you had to have had PRK 6 months before they could medically clear you for OCS. That's probably still the case as I left for OCS a year ago. I got the eye surgery a year before that.

There are a ton of threads on PRK over in the medical section of this forum. If you have any specific questions on the waiver process feel free to PM me as well.

 

[jtmedli]

@jtmedli you're right as to what I was looking at. I think it was 20/200 for pilot and 20/400 for navigator, along those lines. In reference to what you say about flight school, that does sound encouraging. I guess I do have to keep in mind that there are still plenty of people that go in with no pilot experience. And I know what you mean about "throwing it away" I've heard of a lot of guys who do have pilot experience, like regional guys, thinking they know everything and getting washed out as a result. I've never approached anything in life like that and certainly don't look at military flight training in that way. I've been through a couple type ratings so I can assume that flight training is similar throughout in that you're drinking from a firehose, have some sim work, etc.

It's just about "playing the game" and showing people what they want to see. The IPs in primary (and advanced and the FRS and everywhere in the Navy) are given the same books as you and told to grade strictly upon those rules. Many of the IPs you'll have in primary will have less flight total time than you do and will have never flown outside of the Navy so keep that stuff in the back of your mind when studying and trying to get good grades. They want to see what they want to see and many people are pretty close-minded to the fact that there's often more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[Gatordev]

They want to see what they want to see and many people are pretty close-minded to the fact that there's often more than one way to skin a cat.

While personally this mindset drives me crazy, it's important to understand how the system is set up. The system is set up to have one basic set of procedures to help with standardization. If different people do it different ways, how can you (attempt) to hold them to the same standard. So while there is more than one way to talk on the radio, for example, the graded event is testing if you know how to do it the Navy/AF/Army way. Again, part of the game.

jtmedli, I understand you get this, just clarifying your very accurate statement.

 

[jtmedli]

jtmedli, I understand you get this, just clarifying your very accurate statement.

Absolutely. No worries my friend.

 

[kazom]

Sorry I haven't been on here in a while and haven't responded. Just wanted to thank everyone for their responses, you all are extremely helpful. Taking ASTB tomorrow......only got one shot from what I hear since it seems they're going to the whole joystick/rudder pedals/throttle dealio in December.

 

[Renegade One]

Taking ASTB tomorrow......only got one shot from what I hear since it seems they're going to the whole joystick/rudder pedals/throttle dealio in December.

With an ATP, you should find that easy and enjoyable. No idea, of course, but it's probably tailored to the guy/gal with zero flight experience. I'd suggest not "over controlling" to make the outcomes perfect…just fly the sim cockpit smoothly and know where the horizon is and what the various "push-pull" thingies ought to go in the vignette(s) you're presented with. You should ACE that test.

As for the rest, you said: "A passion to serve my country serves as further motivation.". Go with that. Your EE degree won't be ignored/undervalued, and you'll never end up "a cook in a cafeteria". Barring stuff of which I'm not aware, I would opine that becoming a Surface Warfare Officer (perhaps even Nuclear Power qualified…) would be your likely "non-flying" option. And that, my friend, is a GREAT career, however short or long you may choose over time.

As for much else…Test Pilot School, "how many F-35s", "Navy cutting carriers"? Those are interesting topics, to be sure, but so FAR in your future as to not merit your attention/concern…except, perhaps, as a voting citizen.

Best of luck...

 

[kazom]

Thanks a lot Renegade One. I am a little apprehensive about the test since I had a friend who took the Air Force TBAS, which sounds a lot similar to what the Navy ASTB is becoming, and he said he did terribly as a pilot that didn't play a lot of video games (he had his commercial). Basically the idea of being trained to fly an airplane in a coordinated manner, but the game forcing you to do separate independent physical motions. However, it sounds as if you have experience with the new test?

Thanks so much for the insight.