Overcrowded pipeline?

[macattack]

I know this topic has sort of been addressed before, but really haven't found a definitive answer as to "why." So, from what I understand the flight training syllabus is more or less a year. Nonetheless, the process from starting API to wings is often 1.5-2 years due to waiting times between pipelines. I'm not trying to start an AF vs Navy discussion here, but why is it that the AF is able to complete their syllabus in about a year (give or take a few weeks)? Are there more students training with the Navy (Navy, USMC, Coasties), smaller class sizes, or is it something not as obvious? Thanks for the insight. :icon_wink

 

[Harrier Dude]

I think a lot of it may be weather. Look where their training bases are compared to ours (except Columbus). Also, their advanced jet pipeline doesn't cover everything our does. They learn most of their tactical stuff post winging at lead-in, I'm told.

 

[jpmizzou]

It might only take them a year or so to get their wings once they start their flight training, but you have to look at when they graduated college. Every Air Force friend that I have has waited almost an entire year from their graduation date to start.

 

[TheBubba]

I'm an SNFO... I was commissioned 27 May 05... I started API this past March, and Primary at the beginning of May...

Alot of my wait was due to weather... NASP is STILL recovering from Ivan and that hurricane season... and also the minimal damage caused by last year's hurricanes.

Part of it is weather, some of it is platforms in flux, and some of it (for us SNFO's) it that some of the syllabuses are changing. All of that coupled together puts waits on things.

Even the AF kiddies that come through P-cola have waits.

 

[nocal80]

helo's and props are usually a year or less from the start of API, but even with no delays it will take at least 1.5 years to get through jets. Navy advanced Jet is longer because like harrier dude said tactical flying is introduced there while the air force waits until the rag. There is also the boat to factor in. Not just the wait for when a CQ period comes up, but the time dedicated to training for it. I would say that adds at least another month to training. I do think the air force has figured out a better system for getting guys through quickly and on schedule, supposedly they are told when they start primary what their winging date will be and they always make it. The Navy/MC always seems to have knee jerk reactions like 'we need jet guys! everyone gets jets!' or 'shut down the jet pipeline, we have too many jet studs'. its almost like they have a hard time planning beyond a year or so.

 

[ChunksJR]

Ever been on the deck of the carrier during night ops? No hooks required on a 12,000' long runway...that'd be my guess.

~D

 

[Fmr1833]

I'm at VT-86 about half-way done and my bro is an AF KC-10 pilot. So from talking to him and from my own experience, the AF tells you the day you class up when you will wing (if you are training at an AF base...this does not apply to Navy-trained Zoomies) The way they do that is to deny all leave unless it is a no-sh!t emergency, fly you damn-near everyday, and generally pound you through the system - cookie-cutter style - until you either complete or tag out. My bro literally wasn't cleared to sattend my wedding because it meant he'd have to fly out on a Friday afternoon. No Bullsh!t.

So, I guess from my perspective, the AF just lays out the plan and either you follow it or you don't. The USN on the other hand deals with more wx issues, allows reasonable leave requests for, oh I don't know, your bro's wedding, and all-in-all encourages you to have a life and make your own decisions.

I swear, talking to my bro it sounds like the AF would give you a medal if you rode her into the ground so long as you were working the checklist (with appropriate preparatory prompts "Standing by for Engine Fire Checklist"..."Go Ahead with Engine Fire Checklist") whereas the Navy wants you to be able to quickly assess the situation and determine if, perhaps, all is lost and it is time to get out.

My $0.02.

 

[gregsivers]

Like Fmr said, its probably got a lot to do with the mindset. I had a friend in the AF who did primary at Vance then advanced at Corpus. While at Vance they flew 2 or more times a day, and pretty much get treated like children. It took me about a year and a half from API start to winging, and I got winged as an Ensign. I didn't think it took all that long and had no complaints.

 

[MasterBates]

It is possible to go thru the Navy pipeline quick, but it is some luck, and timing.

I went from OCS to fleet squadron in 21 months, but I skipped a few flights. (Accelerated due to holding a Commercial Helo/SEL ticket)

API-12 weeks including A-Pool and XMas shutdown.
VT-28 5 months
HT-8 (and start pool) 6 months
HSL-40 7 months (no pool at the time)
HSL-42 34 Months and counting.....

 

[TurnandBurn55]

What they all said.

In VT-86, it took me just over 9 months or so to complete. The Chair Force guys who selected F-15Es were out in a little over 6 months.. those who selected B-1Bs were done in less than 3.

And that's considering that NFOs don't even do CQ stuff in the TRACOM. Imagine how much greater the discrepancy would be if we did.

 

[NavyLonghorn]

When I flew with the Air Force, they no kidding had me /fly/ THREE hops in one day as a primary stud. Breif, Fly, De-breif, Breif, fly, debreif, breif, fly, de-breif. !2 hours, no break. This was unusual, but every day was atleast a double pump sim to flight or flight to sim.

I actually had an IP tell me "its not about your training Lasota, its about the time line"

You think I got anything outa that third hop?

If thats what you want to do, be my guest.

Ohh, and for you AF types, I flew three "events", but usually "double-turned" as a "UPT Student." So to speak.

 

[zippy]

, the AF tells you the day you class up when you will wing (if you are training at an AF base...this does not apply to Navy-trained Zoomies)

For Maritime, the day you check in for advance, you get your winging date... typically it doesnt change, and here its all about the X's to get you there too.

 

[Flash]

If I remember correctly, the AF doesn't do air to ground stuff etc.. till after they get winged. While Navy guys go to the RAG after winging, I've heared that AF guys go through "Lead-in" fighter(/attack) training in the AT-38 before they report to their RTU (Replacement Training Unit... the AF equivalent of RAG/FRS) for airframe specific training.

There very is a very big difference is the way the USAF trains their fighter/attack pilots versus the Navy. When the fighter/attack guys in the Air Force get winged they have done little to no ACM and attack training. If you are so fortunate to select fighters in the mighty USAF, you go to Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals (IFF, at least that is what they called it 5 years ago) after you get winged. That course teaches almost all of the same things that Navy jet guys learn in the T-45 before they get winged. Add on training to land on the boat, it adds up to a longer time to get wings. I think the much better measure is how long it takes an AF pilot to get to an operational squadron versus a Naval Aviator. From my personal observations it is usually a much smaller difference of time, dependent a little bit on the platform.

I agree that the USAF has their training a bit better organized than the Navy, though that is not saying a whole lot. I think the final product though is a better Aviator. I will give you a perfect example. When a Navy guy goes through VT-86 every single SNFO goes through T-2's and learns low level, formation and ACM basics. The only USAF guys who go through an equivalant course are the F-15E WSO's and they went to IFF after getting winged (do they still do that?). The B-52 and B-1 guys did not do any of that training. Now one can make a rational argument that the bomber Nav's did not need to go through that training but why the heck did they send Prowler and S-3 guys though it too? I know that Prowler guys have the BFMC requirement (ie. run away bravely!) but is it really worth the cost to send all the non-fighter guys through the training? I would argue that it does, because ACM does not teach you just how to fight but the limits of your aircraft and most importantly it makes you a better Aviator or Naval Flight Officer.

The USAF teaches their pilots and Navs what they need to know and the Navy teaches a lot of things that are nice to know, to make you a better Aviator. This from someone who has gone through Navy and Air Force training and has worked and flown extensively with the US Air Force personnel.