PIC Time - FAA FAR Part 1 vs 61

[Pilot123]

Does anyone know the differnece in PIC time under the FAR Part 1 vs 61? I downloaded the logbook program from navalaviator.net the other day and begain loading my info into it. I asks if your PIC time is Part 1, 61, and/or Instrument. I've never known of two different PIC times from the FAA. Any insight to this? I tried reading the FAR's, but as usual, I fell asleep while doing so.
Thanks!

 

[phrogpilot73]

The difference is that one refers to anytime you're the sole manipulator of the controls, the other is ONLY when you're the PIC. I don't remember which one is which, some of the airline types should know.

 

[FLY_USMC]

Part 1 PIC defines what "PIC" time is, ie you signed for the jet like in the military. Part 61 is when you can log PIC, ie sole manipulator of the controls, etc. Also remember in the airlines you have the type rating but your fo is at the controls, you log the PIC. Rather than get into the weeds, that's what I remember off the top of my head.

*Cue someobody cutting and pasting the FAR's.*

 

[Crowbar]

Simply put:
Part 1 PIC (Acting PIC): You have signed for the aircraft. For example you are already licensed/rated and taking your family and friends out for a flight or taking a plane out by yourself. For military purposes, Aircraft Commander time.
Part 61 PIC (Logging PIC): You are sole manipulator of the controls. Pre-PPL solo flying, or after you have your license you get a club checkout and are flying with a CFI, you can log that as PIC. For military purposes, First Pilot time.

We have some real FAR wizards on here, I'm sure if I gacked this up they'll straighten me out.

 

[Pilot123]

Crowbar - Just to confirm what you said to make sure I understand (sometimes I am slow):
Log Part 1 when you already have your license and are not going for more training or a checkout
Log Part 61 when you do not have your license but are acting as PIC (ie solo) for when already licensed and flying with a CFI for more training or checkout.
If you can log Part 1 PIC time then can't you log Part 61 PIC as well?
Thanks again.

 

[Crowbar]

Log Part 1 when you already have your license and are not going for more training or a checkout

Correct. If you start splitting time and doing the safety pilot thing, it gets more complex but for just taking your special lady out and showing off your skills, yes.

Log Part 61 when you do not have your license but are acting as PIC (ie solo) for when already licensed and flying with a CFI for more training or checkout.

Yes. Again, if you are splitting time and flying as or using a safety pilot it's not that simple, but hopefully that's beyond what you're asking about. My club checkouts have been logged as Dual Received and PIC.

If you can log Part 1 PIC time then can't you log Part 61 PIC as well?

I'm not quite sure how or why you would do that. For example if you have 50 hours Part 1 in your logbook but you put it in both columns (Part 1 and Part 61) then it might show up as 100 PIC hours, depending on how the database is set up. I made my own Access database to track my hours and I have separate fields for Part 1 and Part 61 PIC. In the reports I have, I can get a Part 1 PIC summary, a Part 61 PIC summary, or the total of the two but I only put each entry in one field.

This page does a good (and thorough) job of explaning logging time. To be honest, I haven't looked at it in a while but the last time I did it looked accurate.

 

[Crowbar]

Log Part 61 when you do not have your license but are acting as PIC (ie solo) for when already licensed and flying with a CFI for more training or checkout.

While I understand that you're using "acting as PIC" as shorthand for "Logging PIC while sole manipulator of the controls as a pilot who does not hold the appropriate ratings for the category and class of aircraft being flown" I would caution you that there are some people out there who would flip their shit if they heard you refer to a student pilot acting as PIC. "Acting as PIC" means you are the aircraft commander. "Logging PIC" means you are not the aircraft commander but are authorized to log the time as PIC. I know it's trivial but words mean things.

 

[Pilot123]

I appreciate the help on this. Like I said earlier, I started using this logbook from navalaviator.net that uses Access. I have not seen a civilian logbook before that seperated Part 1 and Part 61 PIC time.

 

[HAL Pilot]

It probably separates the two for future airline applicants. Airlines want part 1 PIC only. I.e. you are the aircraft commander / Captain.

Part 61 PIC (sole manipulator) is good for building PIC for higher ratings (ATP), insurance requirements, etc. Corporate operators will typically accept part 61 PIC too as they are concerned about insurance requirements. You can log part 61 PIC anytime you are manipulating the controls and are appropriately rated in the aircraft. Appropriately rated means having the type rating (or NATOPS check for military) if it is required.

I have long advocated military pilots that have any thoughts of flying civilian keep their own logbook in addition to their military one. Civilians log block out to block in vice takeoff to landing (i.e. more time). I have also advocated keeping two PIC columns, one for part 1 and one for part 61 for the ease of filling out future employment applications or FAA license applications. And yes, you could double log some part 1 PIC under part 2 also. For example, a P-3 PPC would log the entire flight as part 1 PIC and his pilot flying / first pilot time as part 61 PIC. (I personally only used the part 61 column when the part 1 coulm was blank. This way I could add the part 61 time to the part 1 time for insurance, corporate and FAA while keeping it straight part 1 for the airlines.)

And also yes, that same PPC can log the time he is in the rack as part 1 PIC because he is still the aircraft commander. so for a 12 hour flight, in his civilian log it would be 12 hours total, 12 hours part 1 PIC and 4 hours part 61 PIC (I personally would not log the part 61 time in this case)assuming 3 pilots on board. The 2P (NATOPS qual) would have 12 hours total, 4 hours part 61 and 4 hours SIC. The 3P (non-NATOPS qual) would have 12 hours total and 8 hours SIC.

There is even a valid argument in the civilian world that the 2P could log 8 hours SIC and the 3P 12 hours since they are required (by the Navy) crew members and the FAA says you can log the time if a required crew member regardless if you are in the seat or not. In fact, at my airline when we fly with more than 2 pilots, the airline gives the pilot credit for all the time when they calculate our flight time. The Captain gets PIC and the other pilots SIC.

Do a search on the site. We've discussed this issue many times before.