gatordev said:
Yea, the Mike models should be rolling of the assembly line in the nest year or so. They will have 701D's. Not sure what they are rated at though. I think 200shp more per engine. Our external load will go from 9000 to 10000 lbs.
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Sh-60s
- Thread starter BRM21o
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Yea, the Mike models should be rolling of the assembly line in the nest year or so. They will have 701D's. Not sure what they are rated at though. I think 200shp more per engine. Our external load will go from 9000 to 10000 lbs.
On a side note I talked to a 160th bud of mine today. He said they had done some work with the HSC guys in country. Had nothing but great things to say about the sqaudron and some of the work they had done together.
bch said:
No don't get me wrong bch - what I I get frustrated with is making sure your story - and by that I mean the story of the Navy rotary wing community - gets told by your senior leaders. That the sacrifices and committment gets documented. Sure a little glory is not bad - not a bad thing at all. But the Army and AF do a very substantial job of making sure their effort as warriors gets told. You guys deserve the same!
The goal is of course more funding, more/better/cooler gear, and the best most challenging career for you as a pilot and a warrior.
I grew up as a nugget with senior officers who entered the Service in the early - mid 70's. I had a Wing Ops O who said we should never fly with defensive weapons on the aircraft because it will make it a target. The wings moto was Navy Helos were "non-combatant" aircraft. We actually had a two star speak at a NHA dinner about how the Navy was totally mistaken to ever allow the CSAR mission to be assigned to HS, and then HC-7 during Vietnam. "It took us away from ASW and that's a dirty Army job anyway". That kind of language.
Then Op Praying Mantis came aroound and we found joint commanders begging for Army OH-58's tpo be deployed on FFG's. The Naval Helo community not only told the joint commanders there were no armed helo assets other than HAL-5 and HAL-6 (Reserve HH-1L) but the Navy helo world would not help the joint commanders integrate the Army OH-58's on the FFG's. Welkl they figured it out and we looked like a bunch of idiots. We had senior officers at NHA conventions bragging about sticking it to the Army guys and that the real glory was LAMPS and HS. ANd oh "vertrep" was fun. And our war-fighting capabilities didn't adjust.
Then ODS came about and other than a few token HCS reserve dets in Tabuk and a few other choice spots, the AF ruled inland helo ops, they had all the toys, training, and the flexibility. The HM AMCM guys did amazing things but even they were not allowed to play in anything vutthe most permissive environments - and NAVCENT actually turned down requests for combat lift requests using the special capabilities of the MH-53E purely on a political bases.
So you guys have benefited from all this and you guys deserve credit. I just want to see the traditions and warrior ethic grow in Navy rotary wing.
/endrant
apologies for the ****ty grammerChuckMK23 said:No don't get me wrong bch - what I I get frustrated with is making sure your story - and by that I mean the story of the Navy rotary wing community - gets told by your senior leaders. That the sacrifices and committment gets documented. Sure a little glory is not bad - not a bad thing at all. But the Army and AF do a very substantial job of making sure their effort as warriors gets told. You guys deserve the same!
The goal is of course more funding, more/better/cooler gear, and the best most challenging career for you as a pilot and a warrior.
I grew up as a nugget with senior officers who entered the Service in the early - mid 70's. I had a Wing Ops O who said we should never fly with defensive weapons on the aircraft because it will make it a target. The wings moto was Navy Helos were "non-combatant" aircraft. We actually had a two star speak at a NHA dinner about how the Navy was totally mistaken to ever allow the CSAR mission to be assigned to HS, and then HC-7 during Vietnam. "It took us away from ASW and that's a dirty Army job anyway". That kind of language.
Then Op Praying Mantis came aroound and we found joint commanders begging for Army OH-58's tpo be deployed on FFG's. The Naval Helo community not only told the joint commanders there were no armed helo assets other than HAL-5 and HAL-6 (Reserve HH-1L) but the Navy helo world would not help the joint commanders integrate the Army OH-58's on the FFG's. Welkl they figured it out and we looked like a bunch of idiots. We had senior officers at NHA conventions bragging about sticking it to the Army guys and that the real glory was LAMPS and HS. ANd oh "vertrep" was fun. And our war-fighting capabilities didn't adjust.
Then ODS came about and other than a few token HCS reserve dets in Tabuk and a few other choice spots, the AF ruled inland helo ops, they had all the toys, training, and the flexibility. The HM AMCM guys did amazing things but even they were not allowed to play in anything vutthe most permissive environments - and NAVCENT actually turned down requests for combat lift requests using the special capabilities of the MH-53E purely on a political bases.
So you guys have benefited from all this and you guys deserve credit. I just want to see the traditions and warrior ethic grow in Navy rotary wing.
/endrant
I can definetly agree with you that the navy helo community was the ******* step children of the armed forces for a long time! But I also think that those days are all but gone.
I also agree that it is a very good thing, both PR and moral to pass on the good and bad things that happen in a community!
My biggest thing is just trying to prevent new guys from thinking that it is all about medals and citations. I have known a few guys whos only drive to do well was the thought of getting a medal or a good FITREP, and those people are damn near impossible to work with and can be dangerous to fly with. I personally would rather have the respect of my peers than a medal any day.
ChuckMK23 said:
I can appreciate that attitude. Coming from a community that has lots of sizzle, but very little actual rep, it's frustrating to hear things after the fact. This isn't to say that conducting ASW off Korea isn't important, because it is, for various reasons, but it's only half our expertise.
Two quick stories: One is how some LAMPS guys put rounds downrange in Desert Storm. Pretty motivating to hear they were utilized, but of course it wasn't widespread and no one really talks about it unless you talk to the AW on who was on the aircraft (he was a RAG instructor when I went through). Second story I heard the other day from a buddy who was in the gulf during OIF. He had his thumb on the pickle w/ a kill order, but it got turned off for a valid reason. They didn't think anything of it, but of course no one ever briefed anyone else after the fact (wing-wide).
Meanwhile one of our dets had it's target taken away by a Spectre. Greeeat, that gives you a real sense of mission accomplishment. I dare to say that guys doing CD Ops (myself included) have put more rounds down range than guys in the gulf have, either on captured or active targets. And that's kind of ridiculous. I'd love to be corrected, but I don't know any better, and that kind of gets to the heart of the matter. From listening to P-3 bubbas, I think they have a similar problem.
Too true. Similar VP story: We were doing Coord Ops with the CVBG off the coast of Bosnia in '93 when that shiznit was going down. We got vectored to intercept a cigarette boat approaching the CVN at high speed out of Dubrovnik. We had made a couple passes overhead, but the dude was unrelenting. We got cleared weps hot and set up a run to put 2x rockeyes on top of this guy. We were about 30 seconds from release, master arm on and everything when he veered off. That would have been a spectacular sight, but it was not meant to be.gatordev said:
Brett
Yup. In 1988 after the USS Samuel B. Roberts hit an Iranian mine in the Persian Gulf, the Enterprise air wing launched a raid that sank 2 Iranian frigates in retaliation. My squadron had a 4 P-3 detachment flying out of Dhahran, Saudi Arabia to escort the re-flagged Kuwaiti tankers and patrol the offshore oil fields. We had two aircraft airborne during the entire strike, The other P-3 provided pre-strike targeting and I provided post-strike BDA. Yet the P-3 participation was never mentioned in the official BG reports on the strike and when a Joint Unit Commendation was awarded all participating units, the P-3s were left off the list. When 1-star/P-3 CTF-72 objected to this, he was told by 3-star/tacair C7F and 2-star CVBG commander that the P-3s did not contribute to the strike in any meaningful way. Never mind the fact another of our aircraft saw the mine that the Roberts hit being laid a few days before they hit it and were totally ignored. They were told that they did not know what they were talking about despite great IRDS film showing the whole event.gatordev said:
We did get a lot of respect from the ground commanders in Bosnia when I flew EO missions there. I've also been told that the ground guys have given high praise to the P-3s over Afghanistan. So maybe it's better for the current generation.
S.O.B. said:
I think you are missing something. CWOs would take flight hours away from your regular officer. This would mean more guys showing up for the DH tour with 800hrs rather than less (no CWO DHs). When you look at army battalion and regimental commanders, most of them have very little flight time.
ghost
ghost said:
I think ghost has the right idea. But I hope Brett is right about the Navy model not looking anything like the army program. Didn't the whole CWO thread die anyway?
As far as regcognition, I feel your guys pain.To the army ground commanders the only type of airframe that matters is the one that puts lead down range. And in most cases the BDE commander is a 64 guy. So most of his focus is on the guns.