SOST Ammo OK'd for USMC

[rondebmar]

http://www.navytimes.com/news/2010/02/marine_SOST_ammo_021510w/

 

[Birdog8585]

It'll be even sweeter when they start making the linked ammo for the SAW.

To pour some lighter fluid on this thread, superfluous (referring to injuries created by 'unauthorized' rounds in the article) is defined as, "serving no useful purpose; having no excuse for being." Um, is this not one of many reasons we kill our enemy?

F'ing Lawyers.

 

[Ace_Austin]

Perhaps the slightly more ammo savvy here can tell me what exactly the difference is between the open tip and the hollow point round is? If it sits them on their asses faster then the currently issued round it gets my vote.

 

[Rocketman]

That's great news! As the article mentions the Mk262 Mod1 has been used by our spec ops guys for some time now and it uses a 77gr open tipped match (OTM) round. It looks like a hollow point but truly isn't. The opening is very small as is the "hollow" portion. My understanding is that the open tip is there more for accuracy's sake that anything else. The canalure on that round is what insures that the round fragments when it hits the bad guy at optimum velocities. Fragmentation is what you want if international law won't let you get expansion.

They mention that the new round has an open tip but "isn't a hollow point". Well if it's based off of Federal's Trophy Bonded Bear Claw round it may not be a hollow point but it sure might act like one. Federal has been marketing that round for a long time as an effective hunting round and their literature shows recovered bullets that have definitely "expanded".

The rounds showing lead below are Trophy Bonded Bear Claws...... Good deal. Chalk one up for the good guys.

 

[scoolbubba]

I don't understand...why can't we use hollow point rounds? Do they kill people more than other bullets?

 

[CumminsPilot]

I don't understand...why can't we use hollow point rounds? Do they kill people more than other bullets?

From our EWS literature:

"The principle of unnecessary suffering or humanity applies to the legality of weapons and
ammunition. Military personnel may not use arms that are calculated to cause unnecessary
suffering, sometimes referred to as superfluous injury (e.g., hollow-point or soft-point caliber
ammunition). The prohibition of unnecessary suffering constitutes acknowledgment that
necessary suffering to combatants is lawful and may include severe injury or loss of life. There
is no agreed-to definition for unnecessary suffering. A weapon or munition would be deemed to
cause unnecessary suffering only if it inevitably or in its normal use has a particular effect, and
the injury caused is considered by governments as disproportionate to the military necessity for it.
A weapon?s or munition?s effects must be weighed in light of comparable, lawful weapons or
munitions used on the modern battlefield. "

So basically, kill people, but do it humanely without inflicting more pain then necessary if the wound won't be life-threatening. A hollow-point will absolutely destroy flesh on a non-lethal hit, whereas an FMJ will just pass through. Seems ridiculous, but thems-the-rules

 

[scoolbubba]

Lame. One day, the lawyers will finally win. The day after that, the Chinese will roll into Taiwan, Iran will close the straits, and North Korea will march south. Dumb.

 

[Jim123]

I don't understand...why can't we use hollow point rounds? Do they kill people more than other bullets?

Birdog hit it with the keyword "superfluous" not as in superfluous killing but "superfluous suffering," which comes from the Law of Armed Conflict.

If you want to look it up then Your best official reference for that is probably the NWP1-14/MCWP 5-2.1 The Commander's Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations, available in your squadron library. (Probably on a CD or the share drive. By the way it's not a bad pub to be more familiar with than merely knowing it exists- it's written specifically for line officers.) That same reference discusses the use large caliber weapons against personnel which--contrary to what you might have heard in the smoke pit/chow line/TV--is perfectly legal and acceptable and has nothing to do with any Geneva Convention.

Big bullet = OK. Messy bullet = not OK. Fragmentation bullet = apparently OK.

You don't have to like it let alone even agree with it, that's just where it's written down...

 

[Pepe]

I like the idea of not causing unnecessary suffering. But once again, the lawyers and hippies have run with it. Frustrating, to say the least. Glad we are slowly coming to our senses on this one.

 

[Rocketman]

So basically, kill people, but do it humanely without inflicting more pain then necessary if the wound won't be life-threatening. A hollow-point will absolutely destroy flesh on a non-lethal hit, whereas an FMJ will just pass through. Seems ridiculous, but thems-the-rules

So a smaller caliber round that becomes a larger caliber round upon impact might not be as legal as a larger caliber round that stays the same size on impact even though both will end up destroying flesh on a non-lethal hit.

I think I got it now..........

 

[govols]

I love the fact that lawyers think that hollow points are bad but a mk 211 .50 raufus round, high explosive, armour piercing, incediary round is OK to use against troops. when it impacts it exlodes, sending a tungsten penatrator thought the target and causes massive blast damage to humans, then it lights the target on fire using a zirconium powder. they are very effective, check out what they do to a goats, its hard to believe that they don't cause undue suffering, but I guess they are usually lethal


http://www.youtube.com/watch#v=7Kr13IN1Wcs&feature=related

 

[C420sailor]

I love the fact that lawyers think that hollow points are bad but a mk 211 .50 raufus round, high explosive, armour piercing, incediary round is OK to use against troops. when it impacts it exlodes, sending a tungsten penatrator thought the target and causes massive blast damage to humans, then it lights the target on fire using a zirconium powder. they are very effective, check out what they do to a goats, its hard to believe that they don't cause undue suffering, but I guess they are usually lethal

http://www.youtube.com/watch#v=7Kr13IN1Wcs&feature=related

This video is bullshit. Sorry.

 

[Rocketman]

This video is bullshit. Sorry.

Yup. Varmint hunters shooting rodents........that clip has been around for years

Go here http://www.rmvh.com/Scenes.htm

Scroll down to Varmint Safari II previews and click on Rock Chucks

 

[ChuckMK23]

The Firearm Blog gives a very detailed account :

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/02/17/usmc-adopt-new-5-56mm-mk318-mod-0-ammunition/