split from USMC aviation/introduction

[evade6317]

Well I guess since this thread is about an intro to Marine Aviation I'll throw in my 2 cents.

As a former F/A-18 AVI guy the one thing I hated more than anything was an @$$hole pilot. Some of that stems from the whole Officer/Enlisted leadership BS that they are taught or they can't be friendly for some reason.

As a maintaner, I could care less if I downed his plane during launches or not. If the guy was a prick to me previously, I would go out of my way to ensure his plane would get downed.

Another thing, if you break the plane i.e. overstress, fly it through a flock of birds, spill your dip juice all over the cockpit, rip off an antenna with a refueling basket, you had better get a case of beer or soda for every shop that has to go out and un-f*** your mistake or the above scenario will happen. The plane breaks enough on it's own, it doesn't need your help.

If you want to always fly, just treat your maintaners like people. Smile when you see them. Toss a joke their way. Get to know something about them like where they are from and what their interests might be. Even a "thank you" every once in a while will get you their loyalty. And as far as the maintenance department will be concerned, you will fly whenever you are scheduled.

I hope this didn't come off as a bitter rant, it just makes life easier for everyone.

peace

 

[Whalebite]

"As a maintaner, I could care less if I downed his plane during launches or not. If the guy was a prick to me previously, I would go out of my way to ensure his plane would get downed."

Don't think anyone likes as#$oles, but you better hope noone finds out who you are, theres no excuse for that.

 

[Crowbar]

If the guy was a prick to me previously, I would go out of my way to ensure his plane would get downed...you had better get a case of beer or soda for every shop that has to go out and un-f*** your mistake or the above scenario will happen...And as far as the maintenance department will be concerned, you will fly whenever you are scheduled.

I hope this didn't come off as a bitter rant, it just makes life easier for everyone.

Yes, life is much easier for everyone. Especially those who depend on planes to be in the air when they are supposed to be. Downing an aircraft for revenge or spite is not only unprofessional, but a serious integrity violation. "Ooh, look at me, I have the power to screw somebody just because I don't like him." Nice power trip. You'll make a great officer yourself with that attitude.

I know I always talked a great game about doing that to people but never once did it because I knew it was wrong. Regardless of how much I may or may not have liked a person I did what I was supposed to do and would ***** about it to my buddies later.

 

[evade6317]

Don't think anyone likes as#$oles, but you better hope noone finds out who you are, theres no excuse for that.

First off, I'm a very nice person and took A LOT of pride in my job. The last thing a maintainer needs after he's put in 12-16 hours on an aircraft is some snooty pilot talking down to him or berating him.

Downing an aircraft for revenge or spite is not only unprofessional, but a serious integrity violation. "Ooh, look at me, I have the power to screw somebody just because I don't like him." Nice power trip. You'll make a great officer yourself with that attitude.

Considering I rarely ever did it in my 5 years in should probably tell you that perhaps the Zero who got it probably had it coming. You'd have to be a truly ignorant officer to bite the hand that feeds you. You are also ignorant if you believe that this won't happen to you if you come off as disrespectful to maintenance.

If you're a nice person and are respectful back, this won't be a problem. The moment you start treating them like 2nd class citizens don't be suprised if you get downed during your launch. (BTW, this only applies during peacetime.)

As for your last comment, I know what a good officer is and if I go back in I know I'll be one. I've seen plenty of them and guess what? Maintainers would go above and beyond to ensure that they always flew! Mind boggling huh?

 

[SCUBA]

I think some of you guys are taking EVADE6317 out of context. I'm pretty sure that all he did was well within the regs... He was just going 100% by the book in order to ground the aircraft. Was this the right thing to do...No...but neither is some of the attitudes that some officers have towards enlisted.

That's one thing that I did see in the Corps. A lot of officers think that because they got commisioned they have to change the way they are... Just be yourself and remember that the enlisted will only take care of you as much as you take care of them. True respect is not automatic... sure the rank brings something to the table but real respect has to be earned.

 

[Crowbar]

You may have seen a CDI designation form before. If not, allow me to quote part of it, the part right above the CDI's signature:
I will not permit factors, such as operational desires, maintenance consideration, personal relations or the approach of liberty to modify my judgment.

While downing an aircraft doesn't necessarily involve a CDI, that one phrase is something that every maintainer should keep in mind at all times. Do I agree with you that officers are wrong for treating enlisted Marines like dirt? Yes. Am I saying you're wrong for using your position to screw them? Hell the **** yes.

And just for the record, anybody who spills dip and expects somebody else to clean it up is in fact due a gut stomping.

 

[evade6317]

While downing an aircraft doesn't necessarily involve a CDI, that one phrase is something that every maintainer should keep in mind at all times.

I agree. Pilots should be respectful and have manners, but not all of them do.

Do I agree with you that officers are wrong for treating enlisted Marines like dirt? Yes. Am I saying you're wrong for using your position to screw them? Hell the **** yes.

What is an enlisted person to do? It's not as if they could just file a complaint to another officer. All he'll hear in return is "That's absurd, he's an officer and a gentleman." Instead, you administer a little harmless grounding.

And just for the record, anybody who spills dip and expects somebody else to clean it up is in fact due a gut stomping.

Talk about an utter contradiction there. Yes, lets beat the tar out of an officer instead of keeping him out of the sky for a day. That's a much more professional way to handle the situation.

Listen, an induced a/c downing rarely ever happens. When it does, the pilot definatley earned it.

If it's a run-of-the-mill launch gripe it will be handled differently depending on the pilot.

If we like the pilot, there is almost no limit as to what we'll do to make sure he'll fly.

If we feel mediocre about him, we'll give it a good try, but no guarantees.

If he's a prick, he's down. (unless it's the skipper)

 

[Clux4]

If he's a prick, he's down. (unless it's the skipper)

I have seen a skipper that was a total prick. I mean prick in every way. The AMO was the opposite who saved him on few occasions. Walked around like he did not want to be around anyone. Very nasty on the pre-flights. Launching him was a nightmare because he never followed hand signals, he came up with the weirdest hand gestures.
If a pilot is a prick, you are more than likely to down his jet on the launch without making efforts to get him up. But if he is a nice person the maintainers are likely going to want to do all that they can to make sure he flies within his flight-window.
The only time I downed a pilot was because he was playing with the horizontal stab while Airframes were servicing and he nearly killed someone. When the AMO heard about it, all he said was "you have been taught right". He never said a word to me after that but if he had killed that Marine that day, I would have been locked up for someone elses neglegent act.
There are many characters out there, they come with the world we live in.

 

[Crowbar]

Evade, you really have a lot to learn. You aren't changing my mind. Believe me, I was in for over 10 years before I got commissioned. If you have a problem with an officer, address it but be professional about it. I've done it, about maintenance issues, among others. Never filed any complaints, just did some "Sir, I was hoping I could talk to you about what happened earlier." If they treat you like crap and you don't let it get to you, you are much more likely to get through to them.

And you need to recognize a little humor by exaggeration. I've never had to gut stomp anybody, but throwing it out there just to let someone know your level of disgust is an effective technique.

 

[Brett327]

Yes, life is much easier for everyone. Especially those who depend on planes to be in the air when they are supposed to be. Downing an aircraft for revenge or spite is not only unprofessional, but a serious integrity violation. "Ooh, look at me, I have the power to screw somebody just because I don't like him." Nice power trip. You'll make a great officer yourself with that attitude.

I know I always talked a great game about doing that to people but never once did it because I knew it was wrong. Regardless of how much I may or may not have liked a person I did what I was supposed to do and would ***** about it to my buddies later.

I couldn't agree more. Here's my perspective as an aviator and a prior QAR. If someone downs my jet for spite, Maintenance Control is just a radio call away and I can get as many second opinions as I feel are justified. The real issue is if it is a legitimate downing discrepancy, why would someone's motivation be spite over safety? Launch crews should ALWAYS be looking extra hard to find real gripes - not just when they have personal issues with the aircrew.

Keeping it real,

Brett

 

[evade6317]

I have seen a skipper that was a total prick. I mean prick in every way. The AMO was the opposite who saved him on few occasions. Walked around like he did not want to be around anyone. Very nasty on the pre-flights. Launching him was a nightmare because he never followed hand signals, he came up with the weirdest hand gestures.

Where you in 212? :icon_tong

The hand signal thing reminds me of when I was on det in Kadena. I was directing a jet into one of those little square parking spots they have. A real pain in the butt to do. So I get lucky and have to direct one of our prick pilots. I'm marshalling him into the square when he decides he knows best when it comes to when to make turns, so he starts to make his turns independant of my commands. When he finally looked to me to put him on centerline I just had him circle the pad again and start over.

He wasn't happy and he told me so. I respectfully told him that it wasn't him who was going to catch flak if the jet wasn't parked neatly, it was me. I also pointed out that if he had followed my instructions from the start the "problem" would have never arose.

If someone downs my jet for spite, Maintenance Control is just a radio call away and I can get as many second opinions as I feel are justified.

Let me clear something up once and for all about this "heads-up". You have to be really insulting to garner this type of action. If you are one of these pilots I have described, I promise that MC will down you as well because they don't like you either.

If you have a problem with an officer, address it but be professional about it.

That's what happens to first time offenders. But when you are a serial bastard, then you get downed.

 

[Brett327]

Let me clear something up once and for all about this "heads-up". You have to be really insulting to garner this type of action. If you are one of these pilots I have described, I promise that MC will down you as well because they don't like you either.

I don't know what planet you're living on, but I guarantee that the Chiefs/SNCOs working in Maint are more interested in sortie completion than your "personal issues" with the aircrew. I don't want to come across as an A-hole because I'm one of the good guys when it comes to the troops. It just irks me that you choose, however infrequently, such a poor method of dealing with the issue. Hey, some guys are jerks - that's life. Get over it and carry on without having to resort to immature, passive-aggressive tactics. Losing a sortie, especially in today's climate of reduced OPTAR, has far reaching implications for training and readiness, so I would kindly urge you to consider the big picture next time you're feeling slighted.

Keeping it real,

Brett

 

[eddie]

Evade,

If the pilot is a "prick," what kind of things could you down his a/c for that a "good pilot" would not be downed for? Or would you just make something up to down the bird?

 

[evade6317]

Look, I don't need anyone to preach on how to do my job. The point of my original post was to give future Marine pilots a heads up and not to be a giant richard to your maintainers. This sort of thing happens, I'm just trying to help out future Marine pilots so they can have a good experience with their prospective squadrons.

I'm not even in anymore. I'm finishing up my degree and right now there's a 50/50 chance I'll go back in. And the reason why I would choose Marine aviation over all the other services is because they have the best maintained aircraft in our military bar none. I'm just putting this out there for those who don't know any better don't make the mistakes of those before them. It's just common sense.

Let's change the scenario. You're a waiter at a restaraunt. You have three regulars that you tend to. Customer A just eats his food, doesn't bother you, and leaves the customary tip every day. Customer B always demands a certain table, complains that he isn't waited on fast enough, seems to always complain about his food, and almost never leaves a tip. Customer C, however, is almost always in a positive mood, knows your name, makes a funny comment every once in a while, and always leaves you with a generous tip.

Who do you think would get the best service and who would get the worst service?

 

[evade6317]

Evade,

If the pilot is a "prick," what kind of things could you down his a/c for that a "good pilot" would not be downed for? Or would you just make something up to down the bird?

Typically, if it's a prick pilot then he's gonna get downed from the get go, and everyone is in on it. Before he gets to the plane me and a few guys from the other shops will "break" the airplane a couple diffent ways so it can't be pinned on one guy or shop. To the pilot it will look like the plane just crapped itself, but it's really a quick fix. Of course we'll log the proper amount of time on the MAF, like 2 man hours, but in reality it took less than 10 minutes to "repair" the plane following all the procedures.

Don't worry, if you're a nice guy, this won't happen to you. You really have to be a POS to get this treatment.