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Takeoff/abort data?
- Thread starter nittany03
- Start date
It was built to utilize unprepared fields, but doesn't mean they had to demonstrate that. Of course, maybe they view the runway as the first option and if that's not enough, they keep on rolling until they've got enough Bernoullis to take to the air.
Could you imagine being in that thing and losing one right at rotation? That thing was barely climbing out with everything 4.0. Add some heavy yaw to that equation and ... I don't think me like
I don't know how the commies compute their takeoff data but we don't have a refusal speed per se. You have faith that the weights the loadmaster have given you are accurate, compute your V1,Vr etc off the weight tape using the appropriate power settings off the appropriate runway. Most of us have our mental gouges as to how fast we should be coming out of the lights, but that's strictly eyeball it and ding it versus scientific. True freight dogs all know of, and have probably experienced, actual loads that far exceed reported loads and that will lead to a seat cushion sucking takeoff. I was in command of and flying a DC8-61 where I saw the red terminating bars go by out of the corner of my eye as I felt the struts extending, however we were definitely still on the runway. It was hot, we were heavy but we were legal. That's life on the ALPO side of the house.
Just curious . . . what are your procedures for high-speed/low-speed aborts if something goes wrong? Or is the thrust difference of 3 engines versus 4 insignificant enough to take most things flying and handle in the air?
We're trained to treat aborts aggressively; get on the brakes at low speeds even if it's too slow to deploy reversers(DC8s). I was told by a previous Director of Flight Standards of a DC8 that aborted below 80 knots, rode the brakes ILO applying the brakes and the brakes absorbed so much energy all the mains blew due to heat build up.In 15 years on the 8 I only had one abort and that was low speed due to #4 engine not spooling up .It was below 80 knots, we cleared the runway, consulted the brake/energy chart, got the engine to respond and re launched . That was in Jurassic Jets, in the 767 you have automatic braking and if you abort the computer selects the proper amount of braking. You just have to remember to keep your feet off the brakes or you'll disarm them.
Very good 3 engine versus 4 engine, or 1 vs 2,handle it in the air or on the ground? Something along the line of 1 in 3 high speed aborts results in an accident so when you're pushing V1 and something happens it would have to be catastrophic for me to abort if I'm approaching balanced field length. There has been considerable debate, and at least one training film I'm aware of, that shows the reduction of obstacle plane clearance as you approach V1. At high speed, basically above 100 knots, you can fly it out of there. I know of one pilot who I highly respect who tells his FOs that he only aborts for bells and swerves above 100 knots and thinks about that approaching V1 on critical runways.
Very good 3 engine versus 4 engine, or 1 vs 2,handle it in the air or on the ground? Something along the line of 1 in 3 high speed aborts results in an accident so when you're pushing V1 and something happens it would have to be catastrophic for me to abort if I'm approaching balanced field length. There has been considerable debate, and at least one training film I'm aware of, that shows the reduction of obstacle plane clearance as you approach V1. At high speed, basically above 100 knots, you can fly it out of there. I know of one pilot who I highly respect who tells his FOs that he only aborts for bells and swerves above 100 knots and thinks about that approaching V1 on critical runways.
We used to do an FAA approved takeoff procedure that used up most all of the available runway… and widened the eyes of observers – both inside the cockpit and out. It's known as an "improved climb."
On high/hot/heavy days where a long runway was not the limiting factor, but the climb was, we continued rolling on the runway well past V1 and a normal VR, finally rotating as the end of the long runway approached. It was 'supposed to' give us 35 feet clearance above the end of the runway with an engine failure, and give us the extra speed and climb performance to make the second-segment climb that could not be attained by rotating normally.
It was not an enjoyable maneuver, especially as you approach tire speed limits along with the runway's end.
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High-speed aborts are emergencies. Had a skipper once who invited all the squadron wives/girlfriends one Sunday afternoon at NAS Miramar to ride in the backseat down a 12k runway, in an afterburner, high-speed taxi.
Although they were planned aborts, by the 3rd aircraft – and some blown tires, all hot brakes, one brake fire, one long field arrestment, and one guy and girl actually getting airborne, the skipper wisely shut down the whole evolution before the rest of us could take the runway.
My date and I at the hold short had to turn around and taxi inbound to the ramp. And just as well, I think.
On high/hot/heavy days where a long runway was not the limiting factor, but the climb was, we continued rolling on the runway well past V1 and a normal VR, finally rotating as the end of the long runway approached. It was 'supposed to' give us 35 feet clearance above the end of the runway with an engine failure, and give us the extra speed and climb performance to make the second-segment climb that could not be attained by rotating normally.
It was not an enjoyable maneuver, especially as you approach tire speed limits along with the runway's end.
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High-speed aborts are emergencies. Had a skipper once who invited all the squadron wives/girlfriends one Sunday afternoon at NAS Miramar to ride in the backseat down a 12k runway, in an afterburner, high-speed taxi.
Although they were planned aborts, by the 3rd aircraft – and some blown tires, all hot brakes, one brake fire, one long field arrestment, and one guy and girl actually getting airborne, the skipper wisely shut down the whole evolution before the rest of us could take the runway.
My date and I at the hold short had to turn around and taxi inbound to the ramp. And just as well, I think.
Hmm . . . in Prowler land, we have the never-ending ready-room discussions about takeoff with 20 degrees versus 30 degrees flaps. 20 gives you better single engine flyaway; 30 gives you better abort numbers. A "technique item" similar to what you described among the 30 degree partisans is to keep the jet on the runway for an extra 5 knots or so in order to get some extra smack. Hopefully, this will allow for better climb performance in an engine failure on rotation. But we don't get close to max tire speed unless in a no flap/no slat landing.We used to do an FAA approved takeoff procedure that used up most all of the available runway… and widened the eyes of observers – both inside the cockpit and out. It's known as an "improved climb."
On high/hot/heavy days where a long runway was not the limiting factor, but the climb was, we continued rolling on the runway well past V1 and a normal VR, finally rotating as the end of the long runway approached. It was 'supposed to' give us 35 feet clearance above the end of the runway with an engine failure, and give us the extra speed and climb performance to make the second-segment climb that could not be attained by rotating normally.
It was not an enjoyable maneuver, especially as you approach tire speed limits along with the runway's end.