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Tilt-Prop/Jet ?

revan1013

Death by Snoo Snoo
pilot
http://defensetech.org/2012/01/10/lockheeds-six-engined-vtol-design/

Looks interesting, and the photo is hilarious.

I'm not an engineer, so forgive the noobish question here... but what is the difference between this so-called Tilt-Prop/Jet engine design, and the Tilt-Rotor design of the Osprey? It doesn't look like there's a whole lot of difference, just some symantic distinction.

Maybe they're calling it something else just to see if they can get away with getting a patent.
 

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Looks like the stated advantage is fewer negative consequences in case of engine failure, as the 6 rotor configuration can compensate in a single engine failure scenario. Also, since the engines aren't mechanially connected to each other, driveshaft or gearbox failures wouldn't result in catastrophic loss of thrust.

Brett
 

Jim123

DD-214 in hand and I'm gonna party like it's 1998
pilot
I used to work in a patent office. Over several months I probably saw several thousand patent applications (usually for about a minute each; my job description was pretty narrow so that's just how it worked out). It's fairly commonplace for some big companies to file for a patent for nearly every single specific, narrow, new idea they get (including new ways of using something that already exists), especially if somebody else can easily copy that idea. Multiply that by a lot of ideas... You oughtta see some of the different schemes out there for getting oil out of the ground!

It looks like they're trying to patent the idea of using six separate and independent engines for improved survivability and wider center-of-gravity range. The language about prop/jet engines is probably fluff to discourage anybody else from laying claim to the idea of a six engined tilt-jet.

Remember, the Wright brothers didn't simply patent the "airplane;" the key to their patent for an airplane was their way of controlling an airplane. They took that approach because they believed that it was the key to their having successfully invented an airplane that actually worked. In particular, they patented wing warping for roll (elevators and rudders were already common knowledge but they were one of the first to figure out roll control). Then Glenn Curtis invented the aileron and they fought about it in court for the next decade...

I can't patent using bolts to hold a wheel on a hub because that's already been invented. I can't patent using 3, 4, 5, or 6 bolts just in case one falls off because everybody already does that too. I could try to patent putting the bolts in backwards, but that might be hard to defend because it's not really much different and besides, there is probably a record of somebody already trying it a long time ago. I could patent drilling the bolt holes on a 45 degree angle as if that will somehow do a better job of holding the wheel on (even if it might actually not) or somehow make a mechanic's job easier to unscrew the bolts. I could also pad my application by saying "and oh, by the way, this includes 30-60 degrees, any number of bolts from 3-6 or more, aluminum bolts, titanium bolts, lemon bolts, bolt kebabs..."

By the way, whether or not an something has technical merit isn't a show stopper per se as to a whether or not it gets successfully approved. Holding up in court in the future is a separate issue too. Either way, it's often cheaper to just file for the patent.


Edit: What Brett said.
 

Pags

N/A
pilot
I'm not an engineer, so forgive the noobish question here... but what is the difference between this so-called Tilt-Prop/Jet engine design, and the Tilt-Rotor design of the Osprey? It doesn't look like there's a whole lot of difference, just some symantic distinction.
I doubt it would work...the osprey's props are compromises between a prop and a rotor, which is why it seems to have either huge props or smaller rotors. If Bell could have made the osprey happen with normal sized props they would have.
 

revan1013

Death by Snoo Snoo
pilot
I see. So the Osprey rotors are mechanically connected, but these "Tilt-Props" would be totally separate engines. I think my misunderstanding was a misreading of the article.

The article statess that the Osprey has issues with VRS and CG. I can see the CG issue, but what is it about the design that makes it react differently to VRS?

Interesting as this patent is... it looks like 6 engines could be a potential logistics nightmare and probably very expensive. Anyway, just wanted to share this in case anyone was interested.

Edit- Jim, thanks for the info on the way the invention/patent filing works. Now I'm curious about the way the early aviation legal battles played out... damn that history nerd in me.
 

NightVisionPen

In transition
pilot
Six engines would give me a maintenance migraine. I'm no helo guy, but my guess is that the future of high speed helicopters may lie in ones based in the Sikorsky X2. I can't seem to find it now, but there is another one out there with little stubby wings and twin pusher props too.
 

squorch2

he will die without safety brief
pilot
Eurocopter X3.
Eurocopter-X3-Helicopter-1.jpg
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
I think it's just a hot item for osprey because there was a high profile crash in 2000 that was caused by VRS.

That's what the mishap report said, anyways...

This is a solution in need of a problem. Adding more complexity to an already complex system? Just by looking at it, I can tell that the front rotors are basically inducing VRS on the back rotors.

This thing is tripling the chances of an engine failure, not to mention probably requiring half its weight to be all the fuel needed to run the engines.

By the way. CG is not a significant issue with the V-22.
 
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