What is the deal with PARs?

[D_Rob]

So we were coming in recently and the weather was pretty scoch. Low ceilings, rain, fog, all the good stuff. We had planed on a PAR since the ILS glideslope was out. We were coming in for the PAR and Approach told us that the PAR was not working well and we had to do a surveillance approach. Of course we didn't break out. While on missed the weather went below ASR mins, so we were getting ready to go to the alternate. They said something about the PAR not working too well when there are particles in the air. They said they thought they could try it. So we did the PAR and it worked out. No worries.

A couple days later I ran into an ATC guy and asked him about the PAR in rain and such. He said that when there is heavy rain and fog that it can show up on the radar screen and make it difficult to do a PAR approach. He said they have filters and such but they only do so much. So pretty much when the weather is really bad and you need to do a PAR, it don't work.:icon_rage

So my question is if you are going somewhere the only has a PAR for a precision approach and you know the weather is gonna be bad with rain and such, should you just assume the PAR might not work, or do the PARs just suck here?

 

[e6bflyer]

That's the first time I have ever heard that. While it makes sense, I have shot some PARs in pretty bad weather with no problems, so I would venture to say that it is a localism.

 

[TheBubba]

Either a localism or a lack of controller experience. Case and point... I once shot a PAR dead on into Chattanooga in the goo.. broke out about 50 ft above DH and on centerline, maybe a tad high. The next day, shot the PAR to the same airport, same runway, CAVU day. Different controller. We decided to follow the controller's direction to see what would happen. We waved it because neither I or the IP felt we could get it on deck safely.

Weather does play a factor is what you see on your radar scope, but I've seen shitty PARs in great weather and great PARs in shitty weather. And visa versa. Not saying the controllers are shitty... just maybe don't have the experience to "see" through the weather on the scope.

Bubba's $0.02

 

[fc2spyguy]

*disclaimer* the radar I worked on and operated was much different than a radar that is used for a PAR.

Now, RADARs are a very fickle thing. This changes with advancing tech, which is actually old now, but your field may have older stuff. A sensitive radar is good and a bad thing. You'll get better information from whatever it is that you're tracking, however, it'll also pick up everything around it. A basic radar has little filtering, and all you'll get are little blips that you can look at, and determine where they are, glideslope and heading info. However, with that you get absolutely everything else along with it. So, if you're in a very dusty environment you'll see little clouds of return from the dust. The radar is also only as good as an operator when it comes to filtering. Give an operator too many filters and they may remove everything but the 747 flying overhead at 40k, or he'll be tracking the gnats ass 500yds away, and it can swing anywhere between. Doppler helps get rid of the gnats, and other things that aren't moving quickly. However, doppler can be fooled in a rainstorm as it will pick up many returns off of different rain particles, and, subject to the processing, may show up as valid data.

So, what does this all mean? You pretty much don't know what you're going to get because you don't know how good an operator/radar suite you're going to get.

 

[BACONATOR]

So just to clarify: a precision instrument approach which is really needed during the shittiest weather, but doesn't really work during the shittiest weather and it's even degraded in instrument conditions... got it.

 

[MIDNJAC]

Our controllers here are students as well (with some exceptions) so that doesn't surprise me. Just take a look outside next time you shoot a PAR in good weather....

 

[Brett327]

Our controllers here are students as well (with some exceptions) so that doesn't surprise me. Just take a look outside next time you shoot a PAR in good weather....

With few exceptions, controllers everywhere are generally young/inexperienced/students. It don't get any better in the fleet. Now, that doesn't mean they won't break out the salty guys when things start to get really busy, and there's almost always someone looking over the junior folks shoulder - just sayin'.

Brett

 

[fc2spyguy]

Our controllers here are students as well (with some exceptions) so that doesn't surprise me. Just take a look outside next time you shoot a PAR in good weather....

You know, they're probably telling their student controllers the same things

 

[magnetfreezer]

Our controllers here are students as well (with some exceptions) so that doesn't surprise me. Just take a look outside next time you shoot a PAR in good weather....

At NPA they told us that as well - the students were only allowed to control in VMC though in order to get certified. Many of the instructors/pilots preferred to follow the controller exactly during VMC, since if you "correct" his mistakes the senior guy looking over his shoulder may not notice and end up signing him off enabling him to control in IMC.

 

[smittyrunr]

So do your part... if you get a crappy PAR when you know it (VMC), let the controller know. "Callsign XXX taking over visually, at 1 mile we were about 1/2 mile right and headed further right."
I also try to let them know when it was a great approach, too.

Flyingout of Brunswick, we frequently heard the PAR go down in marginal weather. Fortunately when it was really crappy (mins), it seemed to work.

 

[cfam]

According to an email our OPS-O sent us, the PAR here at NASP is down every Monday for maintenance. What exactly goes into maintaining a PAR?

 

[BACONATOR]

Sometimes the PAR is just fine and the controller leaves something to be desired.

CAVU day in the 57, I'm sitting backseat on a PAR full stop. By the time we were at DA, we were lined up with the parallel runway at North field, and completeley side-stepped from our desired runway..... You gotta wonder how that worked. Even the "left of course and correcting" was exactly wrong. And no "salty" guy got on the radio to correct. IP just did a quick facepalm and told the stud to take over visually and pay no attention to the knucklehead in the tower.

This isn't just with PARs too. Sometimes the equip sucks balls too. I was again the backseat on a CCX IFR leg to Macdill AFB. We turned were cleared for an ILS approached, turned final to intercept the localizer. It was a CAVU night, and I could see the runway lights perfectly... front seat partner was flying strictly off instruments and she was lined up nicely.... on the HSI. In reality, we were sidestepped a good couple hundred yards off centerline... if that was actualy IFR near the mins, I'd have had the piss scared out of me when we broke out and/or been VERY confused.

 

[mmx1]

You were conveniently in the backseat - is that like the "my friend has a problem" stories?

 

[BACONATOR]

You were conveniently in the backseat - is that like the "my friend has a problem" stories?

Yup. There's no need to lie. I have scared plenty of IPs to not have to lie about these stories. And in any event, it wasn't our prob, it was the controller and the localizer's problem.... Fuck them.

 

[Flash]

It may have also been the radar itself, maybe it needs a 'tune up'. When we did our appreciation tour to the tower at Whidbey I seemed to remember them saying something about the PAR radars being really old. They certainly looked like it when they showed us, the scope looked like it was straight out of the 60's, and probably was. Pretty much what FC2spyguy said (it's like he knows what he is talking about.......)

I have never had one go 'down' because of weather, the driving snow in Misawa certainly didn't affect the one there, it was the controller speaking Engrish that made it an ass-pain.