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Widow of Navy Pilot Sues Raytheon

Flash

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
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Super Moderator
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Fly Navy

Fly Navy

...Great Job!
pilot
Super Moderator
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I believe the Patriot was in an automatic mode, i.e. man-not-in-the-loop.
 
Flash

Flash

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Super Moderator
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Fly Navy said:
I believe the Patriot was in an automatic mode, i.e. man-not-in-the-loop.
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When the heck do you leave something like that in auto mode, pretty stupid decision if you ask me........again, I knew a few Patriot guys from school and they had a pretty black and white view of the airspace, if it was in the wrong piece of sky it died..........:(......not good
 
Fly Navy

Fly Navy

...Great Job!
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
Flash said:
When the heck do you leave something like that in auto mode, pretty stupid decision if you ask me........again, I knew a few Patriot guys from school and they had a pretty black and white view of the airspace, if it was in the wrong piece of sky it died..........:(......not good
Click to expand...

I have no idea how much of that I can talk to (not like I know much). I just know there were some very interesting lessons learned there.

Edit: Meaning on a public forum
 
Single Seat

Single Seat

Average member
pilot
None
Having talked to guys that were there, his lead on that flight, the guys that found him, and the guys that did the investigation... her law suit is headed aimed at the wrong people. Some slimey lawyer somewhere talked her into this. I'd like to punch him in the throat. Details not to be discussed, but the Army seriously F'd up.
 
Flash

Flash

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Single Seat said:
Having talked to guys that were there, his lead on that flight, the guys that found him, and the guys that did the investigation... her law suit is headed aimed at the wrong people. Some slimey lawyer somewhere talked her into this. I'd like to punch him in the throat. Details not to be discussed, but the Army seriously F'd up.
Click to expand...

I agree with that.......
 
FlyinSpy

FlyinSpy

Mongo only pawn, in game of life...
Contributor
Flash said:
When the heck do you leave something like that in auto mode, pretty stupid decision if you ask me........again, I knew a few Patriot guys from school and they had a pretty black and white view of the airspace, if it was in the wrong piece of sky it died..........:(......not good
Click to expand...

Patriot doctrine places a lot of trust in "HAL" - let the computer and the software decide. There's more to meets the eye in this particular situation, and this isn't the right forum to discuss too many details. I'll bet that as the lawsuit proceeds the FOIA requests will pull a lot of the after action reports and lessons learned into the public domain, but in the meantime, there isn't all that much to say.

Having said that, since I am a bitchin' Spy and skilled at finding obscure information, here's the best unclass summary you'll run across: http://www.acq.osd.mil/dsb/reports/2005-01-Patriot_Report_Summary.pdf

The Patriot system was involved in three regrettable fratricide incidents. Two ofthese incidents involved Patriot firings at coalition aircraft that in one case was classified as an attacking anti-radiation missile and an attacking tactical ballistic missile. Three aircraft crew members were lost in these two incidents. The third incident involved a U.S. aircraft firing on a Patriot battery believed to be an enemy surface-to-air missilesystem.

These incidents generally involved a complex chain of events and failures, andthere is often insufficient data to pin down the exact causes of failure. However, a number of shortfalls can be identified.

First, our combat identification capability embodied in the Mode IV IFF system performed very poorly. This is not exactly a surprise; this poor performance has been seen in many training exercises. The Task Force remains puzzled as to why this deficiency never garners enough resolve and support to result in a robust fix. The number of coalition aircraft flights in OIF was enormous, 41,000, and the Patriot deployment was large, 60 fire units, so the possible Patriot-friendly aircraft observations were in the millions and even very-low-probability failures could result in regrettable fratricide incidents. We have to fix Mode IV and institute additional protection measures such as safe return corridors for our aircraft.

A second shortfall was the lack of significant situational awareness in ourcombined air defense system, which involved major systems such as Patriot, AWACS,and AEGIS. We tend to assume that data are routinely communicated from one system to the other, that targets are correlated, and target information is shared and assimilated by all. The Task Force believes that we are a long way from that vision. The communication links, the ability to correlate target tracks by disparate sensors, and the overall information architecture are simply not there. Thus, a Patriot battery on the battlefield can be very much alone. Its closest connection is its Patriot battalion headquarters unit, and in some cases in OIF even that connection was weak.

The third shortfall was the Patriot system operating philosophy, protocols,displays, and software, which seemed to be a poor match to the conditions of OIF. The operating protocol was largely automatic, and the operators were trained to trust the system’s software; a design that would be needed for heavy missile attacks. The 30 days of OIF involved 9 engagements of tactical ballistic missiles which were immersed in an environment of some 41,000 coalition aircraft sorties; a 4,000-to-1 friendly-to-enemy ratio.

The solution here will be more operator involvement and control in the functioning of a Patriot battery, which will necessitate changes in software, displays, and training
 
A4sForever

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
Brett327 said:
Bingo, and Raytheon has more $$$ than some Patriot operator.

Brett
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Two Bingos ....

..... the wife of one of my friends sued Grumman (who'$ your Daddy?) in one of the first "liability" suits when the culprit was found to be some Marines @ IMD in Da Nang .... long story short ... the airplane was improperly field repaired @ Da Nang and the wing came off with my friend in the seat in a dive bombing run .... she won, big time ... got $5 MIL in 1972 ... big bucks back-in-the-day ... but even so, it was still a righteous suit.

I was the CACO ... and on the accident board. The Marines in Da Nang screwed up and they didn't have any $$$$$. Who did ??? Grummie .... that's who.
 
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