Deputy Commandant Waiver?

[mapache2426]

Good evening ya'll, former enlisted (4 years) looking to return to the Corps with an air contract if possible. I'm beyond the age limit (34) but found this (probably obsolete) waiver matrix insinuating that the age limit can be waived by the Deputy Commandant for Aviation. Had a brief conversation with the local OSO and he was totally unwilling to entertain any possibility of pursuing an age waiver. I've heard anecdotes besides of individuals getting waivered through by exotic means, congressional waivers, etc. Does anyone have knowledge of this specific waiver or other potential options? Is the OSO correct in believing that age is absolutely un-waiverable?

 

[Brett327]

Unless you have some fairly earth-shattering justification for granting a waiver, I can’t imagine the DCA even touching this one, nor would I be inclined to do the mountain of legwork this would require if I were your OSO.

With that said, what’s your pitch?

 

[mapache2426]

My pitch would simply be that if I am earth-shatteringly exceptional in any manner it is only in being exceptionally thoroughly imbued with the eternal spirit which has animated our Corps from generation to generation and has been the distinguishing mark of the Marines in every age. If it is further the case as stated every birthday that: “so long as that spirit continues to flourish Marines will be found equal to every emergency in the future, etc, etc” then the Corps should at a minimum not unnecessarily exclude its true disciples.

Interestingly, the door to submitting a Navy SNA package is wide open, so I suppose I somewhat resent being forced to choose between love of Corps or of flying by an arbitrary and indifferent bureaucracy.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

My pitch would simply be that if I am earth-shatteringly exceptional in any manner it is only in being exceptionally thoroughly imbued with the eternal spirit which has animated our Corps from generation to generation and has been the distinguishing mark of the Marines in every age. If it is further the case as stated every birthday that: “so long as that spirit continues to flourish Marines will be found equal to every emergency in the future, etc, etc” then the Corps should at a minimum not unnecessarily exclude its true disciples.

Interestingly, the door to submitting a Navy SNA package is wide open, so I suppose I somewhat resent being forced to choose between love of Corps or of flying by an arbitrary and indifferent bureaucracy.

32 is the max age for USN SNA and they are backed up so right now you would be looking at a board in roughly November of this year and probably OCS after July 2023.

When it comes to waivers there are 2 things to waivers and that is 1) a waiver just allows the board to look at you and 2) it doesn't mean they still won't consider the age and just deny you because of it.

 

[FormerRecruitingGuru]

DISCLAIMER: My "gouge" from recruiting is from 2019 when I departed.

From my experiences, USMC was very firm in terms of their age requirements for SNA/SNFO contracts. For perspective, age waivers for Navy OCS applicants go the Aviation Officer Community Manager, who is an O-5/6 (depending on who) and can approve / disapprove. Being that Marine Aviation waivers need to go to a 3-star general, probably indicates that very extenuating circumstances would be entertained.

Your OSO is more familiar with the waiver process and rules than any of us here. He is either 100% right that there's no hope or as what @Brett327 indicated, not worth the legwork.

If Marine Corps is a show stopper, consider the other services. While Navy might not work in terms of aviation, there are some other OCS programs which have higher age limits. If you only want to fly, perhaps consider Army and/or National Guard and see what they have to offer.

 

[UInavy]

Interestingly, the door to submitting a Navy SNA package is wide open, so I suppose I somewhat resent being forced to choose between love of Corps or of flying by an arbitrary and indifferent bureaucracy.

I feel like there's an answer in there.

 

[Brett327]

Interestingly, the door to submitting a Navy SNA package is wide open, so I suppose I somewhat resent being forced to choose between love of Corps or of flying by an arbitrary and indifferent bureaucracy.

Take this in the spirit in which it is intended, but a lot of Marine fixed wing aviation is a clown show. Just an observation. Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't choose Marine aviation in a million years over USN. After all the moto/Ooorahh nonsense wears off, you're going to be in a poorly resourced, poorly trained unit that begs borrows and steals to get by. That's no way to run a squadron/MAG.

 

[Hotdogs]

Take this in the spirit in which it is intended, but a lot of Marine fixed wing aviation is a clown show. Just an observation. Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't choose Marine aviation in a million years over USN. After all the moto/Ooorahh nonsense wears off, you're going to be in a poorly resourced, poorly trained unit that begs borrows and steals to get by. That's no way to run a squadron/MAG.

Given the comments by your junior officers…

I don’t think you’re in a good fighting hole to defend those comments. ?

 

[Brett327]

Given the comments by your junior officers…

I don’t think you’re in a good fighting hole to defend those comments.

On the contrary... the poor condition of our own force highlights the problem with yours. It's worse... a lot worse. I've cruised with 2x Marine strike fighter squadrons, which is presumably two more than you.

Of course, I expect you to reflexively defend your service, and I'm sure others will pile on. That's doesn't change reality.

 

[Hotdogs]

On the contrary... the poor condition of our own force highlights the problem with yours. It's worse... a lot worse. I've cruised with 2x Marine strike fighter squadrons, which is presumably two more than you.

Of course, I expect you to reflexively defend your service, and I'm sure others will pile on. That's doesn't change reality.

Brett, I’ve floated with a VMA and VMFA. No doubt we all have challenges, but if my service was trained, manned, and equipped for only one purpose - then perhaps our problems would be easier. The reality is that we’re not, and we’re in the middle of transition. If Marine Aviation held has much sway over the Corps as the rest of our ground brethen then we might be discussing a different subject. Comparatively the entire Navy centers its combat power around a CSG.

VMFA is but one smaller subset of the entirety of the Marine aviation and a much lesser subset of the entire Corps. In my opinion - The Marine strike fighter community has been tainted by the likes of Navy and USAF personnel that has led VMFA junior aviators away from their main purpose. I don’t think I need to reiterate that purpose, but It’s probably not flying a prohibitively expensive 5th Gen fighter off of antiquated L-Class into peer conflicts.

…By the way the USAF and ANG are laughing at all us of us… (stones and glass houses, etc…)

 

[Brett327]

Brett, I’ve floated with a VMA and VMFA. No doubt we all have challenges, but if my service was trained, manned, and equipped for only one purpose - then perhaps our problems would be easier. The reality is that we’re not, and we’re in the middle of transition. If Marine Aviation held has much sway over the Corps as the rest of our ground brethen then we might be discussing a different subject. Comparatively the entire Navy centers its combat power around a CSG.

VMFA is but one smaller subset of the entirety of the Marine aviation and a much lesser subset of the entire Corps. In my opinion - The Marine strike fighter community has been tainted by the likes of Navy and USAF personnel that has led VMFA junior aviators away from their main purpose. I don’t think I need to reiterate that purpose, but It’s probably not flying a prohibitively expensive 5th Gen fighter off of antiquated L-Class into peer conflicts.

…By the way the USAF and ANG are laughing at all us of us… (stones and glass houses, etc…)

I appreciate the thoughtful response. I take no pleasure in pointing these things out, but something tells me my post resonates with you on some level. It’s not meant as a dig, just coming to terms with reality, at least the one I’ve seen. If you want my honest opinion, it’s tough to justify the resources we expend on our amphib force, given the capabilities we’re likely to need if the balloon goes up w/ China. I’d trade every bit of those capabilities for 2-3 more CSGs. Let’s hope we don’t get to test that hypothesis.

 

[whitesoxnation]

VMFA is but one smaller subset of the entirety of the Marine aviation and a much lesser subset of the entire Corps. In my opinion - The Marine strike fighter community has been tainted by the likes of Navy and USAF personnel that has led VMFA junior aviators away from their main purpose. I don’t think I need to reiterate that purpose, but It’s probably not flying a prohibitively expensive 5th Gen fighter off of antiquated L-Class into peer conflicts.

Oh man I wanna hear more about how VMFA is tainted and if Fat Amy isn't the platform of the future then what is. It's either buy Fat Amy, Rhinos, or get out of the TACAIR business.

The only thing flying with the USAF tainted me with is the realization that the business model of a 200+ person squadron where the pilots operating an airplane that is 10s of thousands of dollars an hour to operate also run the squadron and do their unit's admin is retarded. It's like having a professional football team also have its players run the accounting department instead of practicing and studying the playbook.

Everything Brett said about being poorly funded and trained is valid.

 

[mapache2426]

Take this in the spirit in which it is intended, but a lot of Marine fixed wing aviation is a clown show. Just an observation. Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't choose Marine aviation in a million years over USN. After all the moto/Ooorahh nonsense wears off, you're going to be in a poorly resourced, poorly trained unit that begs borrows and steals to get by. That's no way to run a squadron/MAG.

Thank you, gentlemen, for your replies. In the same spirit of honest inquiry (not inter-branch mud slinging) and in light of all the hit pieces in the press recently, do you believe the Navy is doing right by young SNAs and adequately preparing them for wars to come? (vs SWO-in-a-box type debacles)

Clearly glowbelt culture is a scourge plaguing the martial traditions of every branch, but reading WSJ would have one believe the Navy is on the verge of disintegrating, and I’d much appreciate hearing from actual USN aviators what the true conditions are out there.

 

[Hotdogs]

Oh man I wanna hear more about how VMFA is tainted and if Fat Amy isn't the platform of the future then what is. It's either buy Fat Amy, Rhinos, or get out of the TACAIR business.

The only thing flying with the USAF tainted me with is the realization that the business model of a 200+ person squadron where the pilots operating an airplane that is 10s of thousands of dollars an hour to operate also run the squadron and do their unit's admin is retarded. It's like having a professional football team also have its players run the accounting department instead of practicing and studying the playbook.

Everything Brett said about being poorly funded and trained is valid.

Did that upset you? We should’ve got out of the F-35 business awhile ago - Plenty of other options to do what we need the pointy nose dudes to do. Every community in the Air Force, Navy and Marines whines about collaterals. You’re not special in that regard. (As for whether or not that is good for business is up for debate - probably not). You can read back through the litany of threads on the subject. TACAIR takes up an ungodly amount of the Marine Air budget and has for sometime. Take your ranting about funding elsewhere.

If you keep comparing yourself to another service that is literally trained, manned, and equipped for air dominance then compare it to the Marines - You’re always going to be disappointed. Again, the fact you don’t realize that validates my previous state about being out of touch. I hear this all the time from some people in your community. Yeah no shit - We’re not the Air Force.

I appreciate the thoughtful response. I take no pleasure in pointing these things out, but something tells me my post resonates with you on some level. It’s not meant as a dig, just coming to terms with reality, at least the one I’ve seen. If you want my honest opinion, it’s tough to justify the resources we expend on our amphib force, given the capabilities we’re likely to need if the balloon goes up w/ China. I’d trade every bit of those capabilities for 2-3 more CSGs. Let’s hope we don’t get to test that hypothesis.

Lots of hypothetical rabbit holes to down on this subject, but as long as little dust ups like Libya and Kabul 2021 keep occurring then those L-Class will be in demand. Like you stated - Very small chance we’ll need an extra 2-3 CSG, but a very high probability we’ll need every L-Class for whatever crisis or operation pops up next that doesn’t need a sledge hammer.

Given the current peer threat - I’d think it would be prudent to see more numerous carriers and a moderately smaller airwing vice all of it on one big target. Similar capability but not as much of a liability if the flag goes up. Lots of eggs in one basket. I’ll stop derailing this thread because the OP has some other legit questions.

 

[whitesoxnation]

Did that upset you? We should’ve got out of the F-35 business awhile ago - Plenty of other options to do what we need the pointy nose dudes to do. Every community in the Air Force, Navy and Marines whines about collaterals. You’re not special in that regard. (As for whether or not that is good for business is up for debate - probably not). You can read back through the litany of threads on the subject. TACAIR takes up an ungodly amount of the Marine Air budget and has for sometime. Take your ranting about funding elsewhere.

If you keep comparing yourself to another service that is literally trained, manned, and equipped for air dominance then compare it to the Marines - You’re always going to be disappointed. Again, the fact you don’t realize that validates my previous state about being out of touch. I hear this all the time from some people in your community. Yeah no shit - We’re not the Air Force.

So, again, what are those plenty of other platforms? And what do you think Marine TACAIR should be doing? And against what threat country? And on what day of the war?

If the plenty of other platforms you are talking about is USAF/USN, and USMC gets out of TACAIR completely, then OK I agree. Doing it half-hearted is a waste.

A single seat VMFA with 12 dudes in it has the same collateral requirement BS as a skid squadron with aloooot more dudes to share the pain. Things like one person filling two DH roles, or DHs being gapped, is a real thing. With BS like that going on, it’s not whining. It’s everything Brett said.