OCS SNA I-SEL chances (but I'm a dual-citizen)

[IsraeliDino]

Howdy all!

First of all I'll start off by saying that I have been lurking on this website for a while and have learned so much from all of the various postings here, it really is an honor to be able to engage in a place with such deep-rooted experience and knowledge. And being able to read threads from the early 2000s is quite something hahaha, a journey through time and history indeed.

Now, to make a long story short (I'll do my best I swear)...
I am a 26 year old Israeli-American who is coming up on his final year of aerospace engineering studies in Israel. After having served in the IDF the mandatory service required of me as an Israeli citizen (and making it a year in the Israeli pilot training program before washing out - the attrition rate per course is usually somewhere around 85% so naturally the philosophy is quite different than that of the USA hahaha) - I've known for quite some time that becoming a military officer + pilot/aviator is an ultimate dream/goal of mine, and that if I didn't explore every avenue to reach that, I would regret it deeply for the rest of my life. It also probably helps that I was raised in a USAF family - my father was a FAIP who later flew C-5s and C-21s - so this dream was brought into form from a very young age, being surrounded by aviation and growing up on air force bases, and was eventually "confirmed" to me from my time in the Israeli air force flight academy where I truly understood this was what I wanted to do, through experience.

And so, in deciding to try and open up all the doors and avenues possible for post-graduation, I scheduled to take the ASTB-E and AFOQT to see just what may be. I very recently took the ASTB (by the way, Barron and Trivium are awesome prep books, and all of the material on airwarriors was incredibly helpful as well - including Jantzen and Mike's trainer, WOW!!!) and my scores are as follows:

OAR - 67
AQR - 9
PFAR - 8
FOFAR - 9

Which should qualify me for SNA I-SEL since my GPA thus far is also high enough!
I'll be taking the AFOQT soon too, but there is no doubt that the Navy's process is much quicker as the test is all-in-one, that is, nice and streamlined haha. I also had my medical checkups/physical, and everything in that sense is good to go as well!

Finally, the bottom line is this - with my dual citizenship status and the fact that I have served in a foreign military, do any of you know/can infer if this will pose an issue for my selection to OCS with an SNA slot? At what stage does the security clearance process happen? I read that it occurs sometime in OCS, but it seems a bit odd to me that all of this background information on candidates won't be checked before beginning the process...

I will also add that I have asked my recruiters this and they confirmed that their past 4 SNA selects were ALL dual citizens of the USA and the UK, and they had no issue moving forward with the process...thing is that Israel is a tad bit different a country to be a citizen of when compared to the UK, especially in light of recent events, to say the least.

Have any of you met/known dual-citizen officers throughout your service, from countries other than members of NATO (or other "obvious" close allies like Australia)?

I know that in the end I'll just have to find out myself and continue forwards with the process, and that is exactly what I plan to do - but I am genuinely curious if anyone here can possibly shed some light on my situation.

Thank you all in advance for your time and assistance - I really appreciate it, and am hoping for the best!

 

[FormerRecruitingGuru]

Words

Welcome to the forum. The “new guy/gal” life story or “what are my chances” posts are discouraged since they have been asked and answered regularly here. Additionally, you have a handy and dandy recruiter to help fill in the pieces in terms of personalized questions.

Suggest utilizing the search function + leveraging your resources. Similar advice for any follow on or separate questions you may have.

Good luck!

 

[IsraeliDino]

Welcome to the forum. The “new guy/gal” life story or “what are my chances” posts are discouraged since they have been asked and answered regularly here. Additionally, you have a handy and dandy recruiter to help fill in the pieces in terms of personalized questions.

Suggest utilizing the search function + leveraging your resources. Similar advice for any follow on or separate questions you may have.

Good luck!

Hello there, thanks for your response, oh FormerRecruitingGuru!

I know they are discouraged, but after searching the forums I found that no one has asked about commissioning through OCS with prior military service from a foreign military, and believe that the experience of forum members who may know people who started their naval/military careers in a boat similar to mine may assist in shedding light on what is to come.

Also, it seems the recruiters don't have too much to do with the security clearance process which from my understanding happens later on - I asked them this already and they said that it is beyond them.

Thanks a bunch!

 

[exNavyOffRec]

Hello there, thanks for your response, oh FormerRecruitingGuru!

I know they are discouraged, but after searching the forums I found that no one has asked about commissioning through OCS with prior military service from a foreign military, and believe that the experience of forum members who may know people who started their naval/military careers in a boat similar to mine may assist in shedding light on what is to come.

Also, it seems the recruiters don't have too much to do with the security clearance process which from my understanding happens later on - I asked them this already and they said that it is beyond them.

Thanks a bunch!

The recruiting manual would provide insight, your recruiter just needs to look up the info.

 

[FormerRecruitingGuru]

Which should qualify me for SNA I-SEL since my GPA thus far is also high enough!
I'll be taking the AFOQT soon too, but there is no doubt that the Navy's process is much quicker as the test is all-in-one, that is, nice and streamlined haha. I also had my medical checkups/physical, and everything in that sense is good to go as well!

Finally, the bottom line is this - with my dual citizenship status and the fact that I have served in a foreign military, do any of you know/can infer if this will pose an issue for my selection to OCS with an SNA slot? At what stage does the security clearance process happen? I read that it occurs sometime in OCS, but it seems a bit odd to me that all of this background information on candidates won't be checked before beginning the process...

Hello there, thanks for your response, oh FormerRecruitingGuru!

I know they are discouraged, but after searching the forums I found that no one has asked about commissioning through OCS with prior military service from a foreign military, and believe that the experience of forum members who may know people who started their naval/military careers in a boat similar to mine may assist in shedding light on what is to come.

Also, it seems the recruiters don't have too much to do with the security clearance process which from my understanding happens later on - I asked them this already and they said that it is beyond them.

Thanks a bunch!

Re-read your questions, I put them in bold for you. Your questions are the following:

1. Are you eligible to apply with a dual citizenship/prior foreign military experience.
2. When does the security clearance process begin.

Both of these are basic recruiting questions your officer recruiter can tell you. Based on the fact they haven't rejected you from the initial phone call/contact, that probably shows you + indicates to you the answer to #1.

My original advice stands.

 

[IsraeliDino]

Indeed, the fact that I have made it through to this point proves that to at least start the process, it isn't disqualifying, but I was referring more to the rest of the process...

Either way, I will ask them again in the hopes they will be able to find the answers - and in the meantime, I'm also hoping that maybe someone on here has met, throughout their careers, officers with a similar background to mine and can provide some insight!

Thank you both!

 

[IKE]

There is recent policy guidance regarding student naval aviators/flight officers, but I can't find it online (meaning it may not be releasable). In short, one used to be able to go to Pensacola and fly with no more than eligibility for secret clearance. That isn't the case any more.

If you take publicly available information as a guide: dual-citizenship isn't a disqualifier for SCI, but you may need to renounce the non-U.S. citizenship, and traveling on the non-U.S. passport is a no-no. If you have significant Israeli connections (family, property, etc.), it could impact clearance for particular programs.

I'm certainly not a recruiting expert, but I'm not sure the retired folks are tracking this recent change for aircrew. I'd reach out to someone currently at CNATRA for details.

 

[IsraeliDino]

There is recent policy guidance regarding student naval aviators/flight officers, but I can't find it online (meaning it may not be releasable). In short, one used to be able to go to Pensacola and fly with no more than eligibility for secret clearance. That isn't the case any more.

If you take publicly available information as a guide: dual-citizenship isn't a disqualifier for SCI, but you may need to renounce the non-U.S. citizenship, and traveling on the non-U.S. passport is a no-no. If you have significant Israeli connections (family, property, etc.), it could impact clearance for particular programs.

I'm certainly not a recruiting expert, but I'm not sure the retired folks are tracking this recent change for aircrew. I'd reach out to someone currently at CNATRA for details.

Thank you so much, IKE!

No doubt my Israeli connections will be a hurdle, but I will do what I can to make it all happen. I have read about the possible renouncement of citizenship - it will definitely be interesting to see if this will be required of me or not, especially compared to those other dual citizenships who did not have to give theirs up. Either way, I will do what I must to keep the dream alive.

And wow yes, reaching out to CNATRA sounds like an excellent idea - I will try and find some relevant contacts and hopefully get some answers.

Many thanks again to you!

 

[Kohima]

Hello there,

Interestingly enough I'm in a very similar boat. I have lived in the US for the past 4 years whilst studying at University. Concurrently to my studies I was retained as a reservist in the British Army (which I had served in for some years prior to gaining my green card). Luckily all of my immediate family live in the US and I should be getting my citizenship within the next few months. I too have my sights set on the US Navy for all it offers and flying opportunities.

I will leave the Army upon gaining my US citizenship in an effort to demonstrate my commitment to the US and like you I am prepared to renounce my native citizenship. However gaining TS clearance in this context is done on a case by case basis and employs the 'whole person concept'. I am aware of another brit (with no prior military service) who gave up his UK citizenship in order to fly in the USAF. As such I'm going into this on the assumption that I will have to renounce my UK citizenship. As you say, do as you must to keep the dream alive.

You may find this document provides a useful handrail:

https://careers.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Dual-Citizenship.pdf

 

[galacticragnarok]

Current SNA here.
Alright so, to answer some of your questions. Being a dual citizen doesn’t make ineligible. However, your connections and ties to Israel since it is currently a state at war may disqualify you.
The clearance process starts at OCS with I think the process to get your secret, and the Top Secret process starts later on when you check into NASC (Naval Aviation Schools Command) your first stop in flight training.
You must be able to get a TS-SCI and SAP (Special Access Program) in order to continue in the aviation pipeline. You will have to renounce your Israeli citizenship but I can tell you that each application for this clearance is a case-by-case basis but I’ll tell you a few anecdotes of how I’ve seen it play out:
One of my classmates from OCS who was born and raised in America couldn’t even get through the whole clearance process because his dad is Chinese and lives in China.
I’ve got 2 British classmates who had dual citizenship and had lived in the UK their whole lives and moved to the US just to become a naval officer-pilot, they are still in the program and are waiting to start primary.
I’ve heard of some other person who got SAPd out during primary because his spouse was foreign (don’t know from where)

I can tell you that since your ties are from a country who is currently at war, the chances don’t look good for you, just keeping it real.

 

[WorldWar33.3]

I know of one guy who was an IDF Paratrooper, and he got picked up to be a SNA. I don't know what happened after that.

My boss was a dual-citizen with a Five Eyes country, renounced citizenship with said country, became an NFO, and now works for the US government.

I wouldn't say it's impossible, but you never know until you try!

B'hatzlacha, achi.

 

[number9]

Talk to your recruiter and see what they say. In my limited experience, the spectrum ranges from "you must be willing to renounce your citizenship" to "you can't join even if you actually renounce your citizenship"; as others have said, this is usually on a case-by-case basis.

Don't be afraid to ask follow-up questions about your circumstances. Don't be afraid to ask to see the relevant regulation/instruction. There is a ton of bad information about dual citizenship out there...

 

[IsraeliDino]

Current SNA here.
Alright so, to answer some of your questions. Being a dual citizen doesn’t make ineligible. However, your connections and ties to Israel since it is currently a state at war may disqualify you.
The clearance process starts at OCS with I think the process to get your secret, and the Top Secret process starts later on when you check into NASC (Naval Aviation Schools Command) your first stop in flight training.
You must be able to get a TS-SCI and SAP (Special Access Program) in order to continue in the aviation pipeline. You will have to renounce your Israeli citizenship but I can tell you that each application for this clearance is a case-by-case basis but I’ll tell you a few anecdotes of how I’ve seen it play out:
One of my classmates from OCS who was born and raised in America couldn’t even get through the whole clearance process because his dad is Chinese and lives in China.
I’ve got 2 British classmates who had dual citizenship and had lived in the UK their whole lives and moved to the US just to become a naval officer-pilot, they are still in the program and are waiting to start primary.
I’ve heard of some other person who got SAPd out during primary because his spouse was foreign (don’t know from where)

I can tell you that since your ties are from a country who is currently at war, the chances don’t look good for you, just keeping it real.

Galacticragnarok, thank you so very much for the insight - this is exactly the information I was looking for!
My hope is that this war will be over by the time I apply and so that'll be one less thing to worry about concerning this whole process, hahaha.

I can definitely see how your classmate with the Chinese father couldn't get through...hopefully he was able to continue with another community/designator! Or was he let go completely due to this?
And those British classmates of yours, I'm assuming they gave up their citizenships in order to stay in the pipeline? Timing wise it seems to me that it could very well be they are the selectees my recruiters were talking about! I'll shoot you a message, I'd love to get in contact with them if possible. They've been through what will seemingly soon arrive at my doorstep.

But wow, it really does come down to that case-by-case basis, I look forward to finding out for myself.

Best of luck to you on your journey to those wings of gold!

I know of one guy who was an IDF Paratrooper, and he got picked up to be a SNA. I don't know what happened after that.

My boss was a dual-citizen with a Five Eyes country, renounced citizenship with said country, became an NFO, and now works for the US government.

I wouldn't say it's impossible, but you never know until you try!

B'hatzlacha, achi.

WorldWar33.3, thank you to you as well, this is so cool to hear!

Again, just a matter of going through and trying for yourself, these stories give me hope hahaha - I will try indeed!

Toda raba, ya chatichat gever.

Talk to your recruiter and see what they say. In my limited experience, the spectrum ranges from "you must be willing to renounce your citizenship" to "you can't join even if you actually renounce your citizenship"; as others have said, this is usually on a case-by-case basis.

Don't be afraid to ask follow-up questions about your circumstances. Don't be afraid to ask to see the relevant regulation/instruction. There is a ton of bad information about dual citizenship out there...

Amen number9, point taken!
From what I've discussed with them, it is no problem in their eyes, and it really does seem I'll just have to go through the process and see where I get held up.

No matter what, I have hope, and will just cross those bridges once I get to them hahaha, though I am willing to do what must be done to make the crossing a successful one!

Many thanks to you as well!

 

[exNavyOffRec]

Galacticragnarok, thank you so very much for the insight - this is exactly the information I was looking for!
My hope is that this war will be over by the time I apply and so that'll be one less thing to worry about concerning this whole process, hahaha.

I can definitely see how your classmate with the Chinese father couldn't get through...hopefully he was able to continue with another community/designator! Or was he let go completely due to this?
And those British classmates of yours, I'm assuming they gave up their citizenships in order to stay in the pipeline? Timing wise it seems to me that it could very well be they are the selectees my recruiters were talking about! I'll shoot you a message, I'd love to get in contact with them if possible. They've been through what will seemingly soon arrive at my doorstep.

But wow, it really does come down to that case-by-case basis, I look forward to finding out for myself.

Best of luck to you on your journey to those wings of gold!


WorldWar33.3, thank you to you as well, this is so cool to hear!

Again, just a matter of going through and trying for yourself, these stories give me hope hahaha - I will try indeed!

Toda raba, ya chatichat gever.


Amen number9, point taken!
From what I've discussed with them, it is no problem in their eyes, and it really does seem I'll just have to go through the process and see where I get held up.

No matter what, I have hope, and will just cross those bridges once I get to them hahaha, though I am willing to do what must be done to make the crossing a successful one!

Many thanks to you as well!

There is a part of the manual that discusses dual citizenship, your recruiter should easily be able to look up all the info that is needed to concern you, or the processor should be able to help you.

 

[IsraeliDino]

There is a part of the manual that discusses dual citizenship, your recruiter should easily be able to look up all the info that is needed to concern you, or the processor should be able to help you.

Thanks again, I believe this is precisely it! Found the manual online.
If anyone comes across this post and is looking for answers, here is a good starting indicator:

https://etoolbox.cnrc.navy.mil/assets/instructions/Navy%20Recruiting%20Manual%20-%20Officer.pdf

Page 2-14 (80 of the PDF), states the following:

g. Dual citizenship

(1) Applicants holding dual citizenship status (i.e., a citizen of the United States and a citizen of another country) may not be used as a basis for a disqualifying factor in determining an individual’s eligibility for Officer Programs provided the individual has a completed and favorably adjudicated investigation and meets all other eligibility requirements. For specific requirements for Officer Designators, refer to the applicable Officer Program Authorization.

(2) Dual citizens applying for Officer Program
(a) Verify the applicant’s dual citizenship status via the “Citizenship Laws of the World” website.
(b) If the applicant is determined to not be a dual citizen, then no further action is required.
(c) If the applicant is determined to be a dual citizen, the two statements listed in subparagraphs 020202g(2)(c)1 through 020202g(2)(c)2 must be entered in block 10 of the applicants Standard Form (SF 86) Questionnaire for National Security Position;
1. “I am willing to renounce my citizenship to (name of country) if required”
2. “I understand travelling on a foreign passport or obtaining a new passport is reportable and will effect my eligibility and assignment to work in a sensitive position.”


And so it seems that, put simply (and not including extreme cases such as described previously) as long as you are willing to renounce said citizenship and only use your US passport to travel, you should be good to go! For this stage of the security clearance process, at least.

Again, this is looking at it in the most optimistic way possible, hahaha - that willingness to give up may very well turn into an the act of giving up.

We shall wait and see!