IG says CBTs don't work

[Bevo16]

Just an example, what possible explanation could there be for a 6+ month wait to enter "A" school out of boot camp?

All of the kids qualified to go into that rate graduating from high school over a 3 week period and going straight to boot camp at the same time?

Just sayin..

 

[llnick2001]

That's fine, but don't make it mandatory. That was always my biggest complaint w/ flight school. Sitting in front of a CBT does very little to help me learn/study/memorize. It's just not what works for me. But I would have to execute the method that did work for me AND THEN take the extra time to go do the CBTs. So in the end, I didn't gundeck, I just wasted time.

Regardless, this is bigger than just flight school. A huge problem is the amount of training that's supposed to be done online but many (we are the Navy, so probably the majority) of the people who need to do it are in a position w/ little to no connectivity. That's where the huge problem lies.

We're transitioning, and I've given up on the courseware this time through the RAG. I don't even click through anymore. Of course, I can do it because I'm a CAT V and no one really cares as long as I learn the shit. Sucks for the other guys. I can't imagine a much bigger waste of time. I can't wait to get back to the squadron and pick up my ACOL....

 

[Kycntryboy]

Nothing like the T-34 CBTs where you have to calculate a tacan pt to pt within 1 degree, and if you get a few of them wrong you have to start all over again.

Over 2 years ago.... and the scars still remain... me too brother .. me too

 

[cfam]

Whats even better is when they make a book verbatim out of the CBT's (T-6 JPATS books). The review questions in the book say "click on the right answer."

 

[lowflier03]

This goes back to the big problem with ACOL and NKO. If the material isn't important enough to have an actual person teaching it, then 99.99% of sailors aren't going to view the material as important enough to bother learning on their own.

Whether or not the material is really important becomes a moot point because of how it ends up being viewed by the fleet. The kind of logic that bred CBT's, ACOL and NKO is probably the same stuff that brought out the Microsim for Primary and Advanced. Anyone want to guess what the intent was there? (A. make the Microsim part of the syllabus. Which in this day and age of budget cuts I could see them replacing actual events with graded microsim flights.)

With all the cuts in every area from proper instruction to enough hours to stay proficient we are creating a very slippery slope for ourselves with the new pilots coming into the fleet. Pretty soon we will be sliding head first down said slope and the crash at the bottom will be painful.

 

[Uncle Fester]

Given the response by CNET, CBT's are the "right answer" and won't go away, no matter how many studies and anecdotal reports say it doesn't work for shit. It's just too cheap for them to accept that it produces a shit product. Higher can bluster about how it's the sailors' fault if they don't learn anything, but the bottom line is, CBT's aren't accomplishing their intended purpose. They're wasting the students' time and sending undertrained dumbasses out into the Fleet, where their supervisors have to waste time teaching them all over again.

The IG report notes that it was assumed CBT's would work for this current generation of new sailors - i.e., kids today and their damned video games - but that it turns out not to be the case. I think the problem is they're too tech-savvy...they know exactly how to BS their way through a program as fast as possible. You think a 19-year-old kid gives a damn if he actually learns anything?

 

[Gatordev]

...or a 33-year-old?

 

[PropAddict]

I think the problem is they're too tech-savvy...they know exactly how to BS their way through a program as fast as possible.

I was so sad when I had to do IA training and found they deactivated the CTRL+SHIFT+F4 auto-complete command. . .I haven't found the new shortcut. . .yet. . .

 

[HornyU2]

CBTs pretty much epitomize what went wrong with the Air Forces's use of computers. Suddenly, every seargent had a means to validate their kingdom by requiring a CBT to be accomplished and then tying it to a pre-deployment checklist. Self aid buddy care, Homosexual awareness training(watching Broke Back mountain), EOD, Chem Warfare, trafficking in human persons, Ant-Terrorism, suicide awareness, LOAC, the list goes on..................... all with a completion code and certificate suitable for framing. And, since nobody was going to be taken off the flying schedule to complete training for this crap, none of the leadership really cared if it was a waste of time or not - because it only wasted the in-between or "personal" time. At one point, it was laughable. The amount of work going into making more work was a big driver for a lot of good dudes to make the transition to civilian and reserve life.

Damn - was kind of hoping the NAVY was a little less CBT intensive

 

[Pags]

CBTs pretty much epitomize what went wrong with the Air Forces's use of computers. Suddenly, every seargent had a means to validate their kingdom by requiring a CBT to be accomplished and then tying it to a pre-deployment checklist. Self aid buddy care, Homosexual awareness training(watching Broke Back mountain), EOD, Chem Warfare, trafficking in human persons, Ant-Terrorism, suicide awareness, LOAC, the list goes on..................... all with a completion code and certificate suitable for framing. And, since nobody was going to be taken off the flying schedule to complete training for this crap, none of the leadership really cared if it was a waste of time or not - because it only wasted the in-between or "personal" time. At one point, it was laughable. The amount of work going into making more work was a big driver for a lot of good dudes to make the transition to civilian and reserve life.

Damn - was kind of hoping the NAVY was a little less CBT intensive

You'll love NKO....

The guys we send on IA have to do no less than 14 NKO courses. Nothing will prepare you for that warzone like 30hrs spent fighting with NKO. At least it will make detainee ops look better by comparison.

 

[Godspeed]

I think CAIs aren't bad at all... (for the most part). They allow the user to go through at their own pace. I.E. Those that are former CFIIs don't need to spend an hour on 40 slides about how VORs work. A meteorology major doesn't need to sit through a 2 hour lecture about cold/warm fronts, instead they can just 'click' through and be done with it....

Bottom line, peeps can go at their own pace.

Where the NAVY really loses me is NKO. You can tell just by looking at the courses that the gov't spent WAYYY too much money on making them 'pretty'. Like the information awareness/protection where you have to click on every office of this office building to solve riddles. Come on now. Gimme a break. That stuff is painful.

 

[porw0004]

CBTs pretty much epitomize what went wrong with the Air Forces's use of computers. Suddenly, every seargent had a means to validate their kingdom by requiring a CBT to be accomplished and then tying it to a pre-deployment checklist. Self aid buddy care, Homosexual awareness training(watching Broke Back mountain), EOD, Chem Warfare, trafficking in human persons, Ant-Terrorism, suicide awareness, LOAC, the list goes on..................... all with a completion code and certificate suitable for framing. And, since nobody was going to be taken off the flying schedule to complete training for this crap, none of the leadership really cared if it was a waste of time or not - because it only wasted the in-between or "personal" time. At one point, it was laughable. The amount of work going into making more work was a big driver for a lot of good dudes to make the transition to civilian and reserve life.

Damn - was kind of hoping the NAVY was a little less CBT intensive

I want to learn about THAT. Those f***ers get everywhere. Matchbox car-bombs don't seem to be all that effective...

 

[BACONATOR]

Yeah, the first CBT you saw in the 60S RAG was on all the various avionics boxes. So, before you learn about anything else, you're answering questions about ADCs, AMCs, ADTs, DTCs, EGIs and 1553 buses. You'd think it'd start with an overview of the aircraft the same way NATOPS does, but that'd just make sense.

Ya, that was ~2 weeks ago for me when I did that section. I was COMPLETELY lost because they throw out terms and acronyms that a fleet guy (read: CAT Other) would know, but for CAT I's... we were ALL lost. Finally started to "gel" during MAST 1. The content organization is RETARDED with the CBTs here. I agree that it should start out with basic coverage of the different systems broken down, different dimensions/limits and then get into individual systems/normal procedures from there.

Does this surprise anyone? How many of us have been told to train ourselves on our equipment by using a computer based trainer...instead of going out and putting power on the aircraft or having a ground unit to play with, i'm supposed to remember how to load up a flight plan in an FMS by clicking a mouse on a screen repeatedly? idiotic.

wastes. of. time.

This is EXACTLY the summary of my thoughts. Why don't they just have simpler versions of the cockpit (ie: non-motion/non-visual etc) that JUST have the avionics and engine quandrants to mess around with/play with/practice with. I would have learned this stuff WAAAY faster if I could just hop into a mockup and go through the XYZ checklist intead of chair flying it or clicking a mouse through a bunch of crap.

I know what you're going to say: The SIMS. Well ya, that's fine. But when the sims are booked solid all-day, when the hell can I hop in one to practice? I vote for a cheaper solution (ie: like the CPT trainers for the T-34s in Whiting that I saw. They were NOT sims, but rather ONLY CPT trainers for checklists)

 

[Lawman]

This is EXACTLY the summary of my thoughts. Why don't they just have simpler versions of the cockpit (ie: non-motion/non-visual etc) that JUST have the avionics and engine quandrants to mess around with/play with/practice with. I would have learned this stuff WAAAY faster if I could just hop into a mockup and go through the XYZ checklist intead of chair flying it or clicking a mouse through a bunch of crap.

You dont have those? The Army contracts with LSI to maintain its cockpit proceedure trainers. We've got them for all our platforms from the 67 to the Advanced airframes and you go through startup, runup, emergency shutdown, etc multiple times before you ever even meet your IP much less have to deal with the actual aircraft.

I guess they figure if it saves them one hot start a year its worth the money invested.

We also have a technical library on post with the same trainers for you to use on your personal time. As well as computers with Falconview installed on them to practice flight planning.

 

[Gatordev]

I know what you're going to say: The SIMS. Well ya, that's fine. But when the sims are booked solid all-day, when the hell can I hop in one to practice? I vote for a cheaper solution (ie: like the CPT trainers for the T-34s in Whiting that I saw. They were NOT sims, but rather ONLY CPT trainers for checklists)

We had the same problem at -41 when I went through. What we did was grab an aircraft in the hangar and jump in and just stare at stuff w/ our NATOPS in hand. It did a lot. You can run through a checklist while sitting in the real thing, even if the screens don't fire up for you glass guys. Just stop my Maint. Control and ask which bird you can sit in. Chances are, at least one will be available, even if it doesn't have all its seats.