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Hot new helicopter/rotorcraft news

FlyNavy03

Just when I thought I was out,they pull me back in
pilot
It looks like Army is moving forward with RFI/RFP for a pilot training platform for Initial Entry Rotary Wing to replace the UH-72.

Interested in what @FlyNavy03 thinks...

TH-73 is real contender with the SPIFR requirements

Interesting, but not surprising.

I've said it in other places and I'll say it again here. Having been a Bell factory 505 instructor, I can tell you that the 505 is an amazing aircraft...for what it was designed to do. It's purpose in life is to be a helicopter that a retired banker can use to fly his grandkids around the ranch or back and forth between his house and his hunting property. It's a very easy aircraft to fly and extremely reliable. However, the same things that make it an awesome private helo also make it a less-than-ideal trainer. There are a total of 8 switches in the cockpit, no circuit breakers, and binary fuel control - you're either in fly or idle, there is no in between. So the only EPs that you can effectively simulate in flight are hydraulic boost failure or an engine failure. Even then, the aircraft is so stable that you can not only easily run it on without boost, you can pretty easily pull it into a hover and make a vertical landing. As far as autos go, I miss my days at Bell when I would spend several hours with clients doing nothing but throwing it at the ground. That bird is the most forgiving aircraft in an auto that I've ever flown. You can do a lot of things wrong on the way down and still come out on the right side of the equation. And it will absolutely save your bacon if things start to get weird. I once had a client put the throttle back to fly right at the bottom of the auto - in the pull - and we had no exceedances and never touched the ground. Maybe I'm just old and crotchety, but I'd like my students to start out in something a bit less forgiving. I think they'll learn more that way. I'd also like to be able to show them more than a couple of EPs.

I got the chance recently to spend some time in an R66 and I'm not sure why it gets so much hate. I thought that it flew just fine. In a lot of ways, it's a closer follow-up to the revered 206 than the 505 is, despite the name. Plus they're relatively cheap to buy and operate and readily available. Is it the ideal solution? I haven't done enough with it to make that determination, but I think it's definitely worth consideration.

I'm not familiar enough with the other contenders to weigh in at all. I still think if we want an IFR/VFR/Do everything trainer there is only one real option - the 407GXi.

As far as the rest of the discussion about the need for full-down autos I look at it this way - True, most pilots will never experience an actual engine failure in their careers, but anyone who thinks autos are only about engine failures is teaching them incorrectly. In my opinion, autos are the best way to truly develop an understanding of how helicopters work. Something clicks in pilots when they suddenly find themselves being the thing that's controlling Nr and having to make constant adjustments to their flight parameters to avoid bad things happening. I think we should take it all the way to the ground as often as possible. The last 5% of the auto is where 80% of the learning takes place.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
I got the chance recently to spend some time in an R66 and I'm not sure why it gets so much hate. I thought that it flew just fine.
The primary issue with the R66 is the centrally mounted cyclic with the T-Bar. Instructors have to kind of hang their hand just below the bar and it gets tiring. Also, I doubt the super light weight of the Robbie’s would stand up well to typical military training - which is why no other nations use them as a military training helicopter. Much like the 505, it is designed for pleasure, not work.

I think you are spot on about the 407GXi. The Enstrom is a 480b “Elite” would be a good training helicopter, but I seriously doubt Enstrom could make them fast enough to fill the order.

Like @PhrogPhlyer I’m waiting in that big lottery hit to buy a 505!
 

PhrogPhlyer

Two heads are better than one.
pilot
None
thought through similar scenarios and even practiced them in the sim, even though there weren't established procedures or training for our scenario.
A great practice that more people should do. Practicing the non-survivable scenario will go a long way if it were to ever happen.

This also can help in a relatively "normal" event in an aircraft that isn't approved for this, such as a spin. In the '80s, Approach magazine had an article titled "We Spun It." This was a P-3 that got into a spin in actual IFR in the Philippines. And they attribute "standard" spin recovery methods for saving their lives.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
Thanks for your insight into the 505. Answers a lot as to why the Navy didn't buy this.
But... Now I have to win the lottery, I want one!!!
It also just didn’t meet 80% of the KPPs they asked for in the RFP. As much as the Navy loves saying “COTS,” it hates actually doing it.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
That 505 would save the Navy at least a ton on VA disability for musculoskeletal disability issues brought on by 2000 hours in the TH-57 🤮

It basically IS a 206
Interesting, but not surprising.

I've said it in other places and I'll say it again here. Having been a Bell factory 505 instructor, I can tell you that the 505 is an amazing aircraft...for what it was designed to do. It's purpose in life is to be a helicopter that a retired banker can use to fly his grandkids around the ranch or back and forth between his house and his hunting property. It's a very easy aircraft to fly and extremely reliable. However, the same things that make it an awesome private helo also make it a less-than-ideal trainer. There are a total of 8 switches in the cockpit, no circuit breakers, and binary fuel control - you're either in fly or idle, there is no in between. So the only EPs that you can effectively simulate in flight are hydraulic boost failure or an engine failure. Even then, the aircraft is so stable that you can not only easily run it on without boost, you can pretty easily pull it into a hover and make a vertical landing. As far as autos go, I miss my days at Bell when I would spend several hours with clients doing nothing but throwing it at the ground. That bird is the most forgiving aircraft in an auto that I've ever flown. You can do a lot of things wrong on the way down and still come out on the right side of the equation. And it will absolutely save your bacon if things start to get weird. I once had a client put the throttle back to fly right at the bottom of the auto - in the pull - and we had no exceedances and never touched the ground. Maybe I'm just old and crotchety, but I'd like my students to start out in something a bit less forgiving. I think they'll learn more that way. I'd also like to be able to show them more than a couple of EPs.

I got the chance recently to spend some time in an R66 and I'm not sure why it gets so much hate. I thought that it flew just fine. In a lot of ways, it's a closer follow-up to the revered 206 than the 505 is, despite the name. Plus they're relatively cheap to buy and operate and readily available. Is it the ideal solution? I haven't done enough with it to make that determination, but I think it's definitely worth consideration.

I'm not familiar enough with the other contenders to weigh in at all. I still think if we want an IFR/VFR/Do everything trainer there is only one real option - the 407GXi.

As far as the rest of the discussion about the need for full-down autos I look at it this way - True, most pilots will never experience an actual engine failure in their careers, but anyone who thinks autos are only about engine failures is teaching them incorrectly. In my opinion, autos are the best way to truly develop an understanding of how helicopters work. Something clicks in pilots when they suddenly find themselves being the thing that's controlling Nr and having to make constant adjustments to their flight parameters to avoid bad things happening. I think we should take it all the way to the ground as often as possible. The last 5% of the auto is where 80% of the learning takes place.
The Robinson gets a bad rap because it’s the Bic lighter of helicopters. MRO in a R66 is throwing the aircraft away and getting a new one. For the military training role, the teetertotter cyclic is less than ideal, and the long mast with a teetering head has made it notorious for mast bumping. With low level flights and other tactical events, I think it’s not a winner.

Great for VFR pattern work or taking tourists down the coast. Not so great as a military trainer, IMO.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
The primary issue with the R66 is the centrally mounted cyclic with the T-Bar. Instructors have to kind of hang their hand just below the bar and it gets tiring. Also, I doubt the super light weight of the Robbie’s would stand up well to typical military training - which is why no other nations use them as a military training helicopter. Much like the 505, it is designed for pleasure, not work.

I think you are spot on about the 407GXi. The Enstrom is a 480b “Elite” would be a good training helicopter, but I seriously doubt Enstrom could make them fast enough to fill the order.

Like @PhrogPhlyer I’m waiting in that big lottery hit to buy a 505!
H125 will blow the doors off of either, but no US service is likely to accept a clockwise-turning rotor.
 

ChuckMK23

Standing by for the RIF !
pilot
H125 will blow the doors off of either, but no US service is likely to accept a clockwise-turning rotor.
What a great machine. Was fortunate enough to fly it for CNATRA suitability evaluation as part of the Army NTH competition. Flew to OLF Santa Rosa and Spencer Field ith what was then Eurocopter civ instructor pilot. Twist grip mounted engine control. It was a beast with great visibility and full autos were a joy. Net net, the Army chose TH-67 and the rest is history.
 
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