• Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?

    Go here:

    Edit Account Details and Profile

Hot new helicopter/rotorcraft news

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Quick side note…I think Mahan once said; “CONOPS change.”

Great, so what would that be? How would you have a sensor on-top w/in 30 minutes of a CERTSUB? Who is going to locate the bad guy fleet while maintaining the deck space limitation on your HVU all while also keeping your HVU far away from said bad guy fleet to keep the HVU hidden? Among many other questions that starts to open the discussion to where it probably shouldn't go.

Yes, we can change CONOPS, but for something to be drastically different than how we do it today and keep the relative effectiveness of said CONOPS, we probably will need 22nd century tech and not 21st. And we're just not there yet.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Great, so what would that be? How would you have a sensor on-top w/in 30 minutes of a CERTSUB? Who is going to locate the bad guy fleet while maintaining the deck space limitation on your HVU all while also keeping your HVU far away from said bad guy fleet to keep the HVU hidden? Among many other questions that starts to open the discussion to where it probably shouldn't go.

Yes, we can change CONOPS, but for something to be drastically different than how we do it today and keep the relative effectiveness of said CONOPS, we probably will need 22nd century tech and not 21st. And we're just not there yet.
I get it. But I can’t shake the feeling that there is a small bit of the “how we fought the last war” syndrome here - or maybe “that’s the way we’ve always done it.” I admit, I won’t fight it, I am not remotely up to date with ASW operations and my perspective is amateurish but the real, long term, answer to your question is simple…Why have surface ships at all? Theoretically (critical word, I know) we can launch a missile from underwater that can deliver hundreds of suicide drones that could hunt their own prey based on some tactical ordering.

The entire purpose of CSG ships is to protect (or service) the carrier. If we can’t get beyond the limited deck space of destroyers (who exist to hunt submarines) why have them? I genuinely hope that our best and brightest aren’t settling with buying a helicopter that was fielded in 1979 - because “deck space is hard to figure out.” From air war, to surface combat (to include land warfare), to sub-surface combat war is changing and the answers I hope are out there are probably well classified, but I hope they are out there.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
I get it. But I can’t shake the feeling that there is a small bit of the “how we fought the last war” syndrome here - or maybe “that’s the way we’ve always done it.” I admit, I won’t fight it, I am not remotely up to date with ASW operations and my perspective is amateurish but the real, long term, answer to your question is simple…Why have surface ships at all? Theoretically (critical word, I know) we can launch a missile from underwater that can deliver hundreds of suicide drones that could hunt their own prey based on some tactical ordering.

The entire purpose of CSG ships is to protect (or service) the carrier. If we can’t get beyond the limited deck space of destroyers (who exist to hunt submarines) why have them? I genuinely hope that our best and brightest aren’t settling with buying a helicopter that was fielded in 1979 - because “deck space is hard to figure out.” From air war, to surface combat (to include land warfare), to sub-surface combat war is changing and the answers I hope are out there are probably well classified, but I hope they are out there.
Arguably, the surface ships are just as, if not more, important than the carrier now.

That carrier is going to be so far back it sortie rate will be negligible.

TLAMs and SMs don’t need tankers or crew rest.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
We already had a (three) FireScout(s). It didn’t go well.

1 - There is a lot of defense contractors at the start of that video.
2 - DASH!

Gyrodyne_QH-50_%28cropped%29.jpg
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Arguably, the surface ships are just as, if not more, important than the carrier now.

That carrier is going to be so far back it sortie rate will be negligible.

TLAMs and SMs don’t need tankers or crew rest.
This is an excellent point.
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
Agreed, but he said “fleet” not just subsurface. Also, future unmanned surface and subsurface vehicles promise to help with ASW.
The larger point is that DDGs will need to fight independently or as part of SAGs.

They’re going to need organic air support, be that a larger UAS or a manned helicopter.

In think there’s value to having something like a V-280 aboard the CVN, giving true long-range ASW/ASuW as well as real CSAR, not just a planeguard.

That would necessitate a split fleet, but that’s not the worst thing that could happen.

We used to have a lot more types of rotorcraft.
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
or maybe “that’s the way we’ve always done it.”

One constant that requires some level of doing it the same way is physics. Sound hasn't evolved with our technology, so you still need to have the basics of "Search, Localization, Tracking, Attack." (Capitalization just for @IKE).

Why have surface ships at all?

As mentioned, TLAMs, NGFS, AAW, and their tail, which can be very helpful.

we can launch a missile from underwater that can deliver hundreds of suicide drones that could hunt their own prey based on some tactical ordering.

Can we? We still need to know where to launch that missile, which still requires OTH-T.

The entire purpose of CSG ships is to protect (or service) the carrier.

A narrow view that I'd argue is extremely simplified. That "service" involves more than just SM-3/5s (or whatever number we're up to now). There's a lot of other mission sets/support that happens that involves pushing a sensor far away from the CVN.

best and brightest aren’t settling with buying a helicopter that was fielded in 1979

And that may be where the disconnect is. The H-60 is an amazing airframe, but if that's not what wins, so be it. But if it does win, or something similar, it's not like an old Blackhawk A-model. There's a lot of extra, pretty amazing gear in there, and even more everyone wants, that makes it even more capable than the Navy's 1991 version.

Space-based assets and long-loiter unmanned ISR.

To keep it on the UNCLASS level, I'll respond with, "No." Sometimes even a side-lobe isn't detected with enough resolution from space to locate what you're looking for.
 
Last edited:
Top