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OCS 02Nov20 SNA/SNFO (Pilot/NFO) Board

nyynyg

Member
Absolutely,

We know people get selected with ASTB minimums (5/6/6), but some don't get selected with high ASTB scores so is it all about the ASTB?

No.

We know people get selected with low GPA's and some don't get selected with a very good GPA, so is it all about GPA?

No.

We can say the same for any objective criteria under the sun so why are some selected and others are not when objectively one candidate is "most qualified", when another is objectively less qualified but is selected?

My theory is that there are criteria (or what I call specifics) for each board member that if they are going to select a candidate they need to check off these specific criteria or they're not going to select the candidate, regardless of ASTB, GPA, etc. I think the way this is done mentally is similar to a flow chart, if you get a yes, continue on to the next criteria. If the answer leans toward a no, we start to consider other factors or criteria like objective numbers much sooner in the process.

Criteria #1: Administrative, and Easy No's
Is the applicant worth my time to evaluate from a high altitude perspective, properly filled out application, waivers (to include morality, felonies etc), clerical or administrative errors. This can often form an immediate "no" pile for any criteria the board wishes to make a hard cut-off for, moral waivers, hard cut-offs like low GPA or ASTB scores (hasn't been done in a while according to OffRec) etc. Maybe there is something that is a glaring no to the board member.

Criteria #2: Desire To Join The Navy
Is the applicant clearly interested in joining the Navy. Is this clearly stated and quantified in their application? First and foremost we're joining the Navy, not the aviation community. The applicant needs to show interest in the military branch because if you fail flight school or get hit with NAMI and fail a flight physical you're selecting a different career in the Navy, or getting out completely.

Criteria #3: Officer Aptitude
Is the applicant clearly interested, capable, and competent to serve in an officer capacity and be a leader? Has the applicant demonstrated leadership in their application, offices held in extra curricular activities, captain of sports teams, management/leadership in jobs, program leads, etc.

Criteria #4: Desire To Be In The Aviation Career
Does the applicant express a desire to be a Navy pilot/NFO, and why? Does the applicant have the right attitude that would fit in with being a part of the Navy aviator community? What is the applicants disposition to failure or being a part of a community that is constantly being evaluated? Is this person a good fit, or not? Would I want this person as my own wingman?

Criteria #5: Objective Scores That Quantify Aptitudes
Does the applicant have scores that match the previous criteria, detract from the application, or add to the candidates overall position in the board. Pretty self explanatory. This helps the board member quantify whether a selected applicant will make it through flight school.

Criteria #6: How Does This Candidate Stack Against Others?
Based on the previously mentioned criteria, does the candidate rate higher or lower from criteria 2-5. Candidates rating higher in Criteria 2 may be placed above candidates rated higher in Criteria 5. Likewise, candidates with a low Criteria 3 or 4 but very high Criteria 5 may be placed lower and receive a non-selection because they show no desire, or aptitude. Their ASTB cannot carry them through with such large deficiencies in more important criteria's. If someone with all 9's doesn't show leadership, aptitude, or strong desire to be in the Navy, or doesn't appear to be a good fit for the community, why choose them?

That's my theory on selection. There's probably things I forgot or important aspects I may have missed but that's the gist of it.

The specifics I was referring to was more to a specific category like a check in a box before moving on to the next important category, not necessarily certain objective cut-offs or minimums. I think it's a process that each board members goes through on their own. I think the ASTB and other objective scores help validate the other criteria for selection. This is a mental process that is done rapidly for each candidate. But if you hit a snag higher up on the criteria list, that's not a good sign. I think we look at ASTB and other objective numbers as being the first criteria and I think that's completely upside-down from reality during the selection process.

If you think about the criteria I've listed, you've also written a pretty good motivational statement IMHO...
Thanks, here's to hoping for only having to worry about this for a few more days lol
 

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
Absolutely,

We know people get selected with ASTB minimums (5/6/6), but some don't get selected with high ASTB scores so is it all about the ASTB?

No.

We know people get selected with low GPA's and some don't get selected with a very good GPA, so is it all about GPA?

No.

We can say the same for any objective criteria under the sun so why are some selected and others are not when objectively one candidate is "most qualified", when another is objectively less qualified but is selected?

My theory is that there are criteria (or what I call specifics) for each board member that if they are going to select a candidate they need to check off these specific criteria or they're not going to select the candidate, regardless of ASTB, GPA, etc. I think the way this is done mentally is similar to a flow chart, if you get a yes, continue on to the next criteria. If the answer leans toward a no, we start to consider other factors or criteria like objective numbers much sooner in the process.

Criteria #1: Administrative, and Easy No's
Is the applicant worth my time to evaluate from a high altitude perspective, properly filled out application, waivers (to include morality, felonies etc), clerical or administrative errors. This can often form an immediate "no" pile for any criteria the board wishes to make a hard cut-off for, moral waivers, hard cut-offs like low GPA or ASTB scores (hasn't been done in a while according to OffRec) etc. Maybe there is something that is a glaring no to the board member.

Criteria #2: Desire To Join The Navy
Is the applicant clearly interested in joining the Navy. Is this clearly stated and quantified in their application? First and foremost we're joining the Navy, not the aviation community. The applicant needs to show interest in the military branch because if you fail flight school or get hit with NAMI and fail a flight physical you're selecting a different career in the Navy, or getting out completely.

Criteria #3: Officer Aptitude
Is the applicant clearly interested, capable, and competent to serve in an officer capacity and be a leader? Has the applicant demonstrated leadership in their application, offices held in extra curricular activities, captain of sports teams, management/leadership in jobs, program leads, etc.

Criteria #4: Desire To Be In The Aviation Career
Does the applicant express a desire to be a Navy pilot/NFO, and why? Does the applicant have the right attitude that would fit in with being a part of the Navy aviator community? What is the applicants disposition to failure or being a part of a community that is constantly being evaluated? Is this person a good fit, or not? Would I want this person as my own wingman?

Criteria #5: Objective Scores That Quantify Aptitudes
Does the applicant have scores that match the previous criteria, detract from the application, or add to the candidates overall position in the board. Pretty self explanatory. This helps the board member quantify whether a selected applicant will make it through flight school.

Criteria #6: How Does This Candidate Stack Against Others?
Based on the previously mentioned criteria, does the candidate rate higher or lower from criteria 2-5. Candidates rating higher in Criteria 2 may be placed above candidates rated higher in Criteria 5. Likewise, candidates with a low Criteria 3 or 4 but very high Criteria 5 may be placed lower and receive a non-selection because they show no desire, or aptitude. Their ASTB cannot carry them through with such large deficiencies in more important criteria's. If someone with all 9's doesn't show leadership, aptitude, or strong desire to be in the Navy, or doesn't appear to be a good fit for the community, why choose them?

That's my theory on selection. There's probably things I forgot or important aspects I may have missed but that's the gist of it.

The specifics I was referring to was more to a specific category like a check in a box before moving on to the next important category, not necessarily certain objective cut-offs or minimums. I think it's a process that each board members goes through on their own. I think the ASTB and other objective scores help validate the other criteria for selection. This is a mental process that is done rapidly for each candidate. But if you hit a snag higher up on the criteria list, that's not a good sign. I think we look at ASTB and other objective numbers as being the first criteria and I think that's completely upside-down from reality during the selection process.

If you think about the criteria I've listed, you've also written a pretty good motivational statement IMHO...

You must remember they take just a quick look at the applications, the only real predictor as to the chances of a person getting through the pipeline is the ASTB that is why it is king, GPA when it comes to aviation has not been a big factor at all (unless it really sucks then it can be an issue)

Yes there are people with high GPA's that are not selected, sometimes there are factors that people don't disclose such as waivers for non-medical issues. I know there were people on this site from my NRD who that were not selected that had decent scores, some disclosed in the threads they had a legal/moral waiver, others did not disclose it. Then there are those with lower ASTB scores that are picked up, often it is just a numbers game, and some get lucky.

The number of applicants selected for aviation that have done really nothing outside of school far exceeds those selected from other designators as the most important thing is the ability to get through flight school. The best example I have is I had a guy who was a D1 athlete, 3.5 ish GPA, and good degree, however his PFAR was a 5 on his 1st board and he was a N, he second board his PFAR was a 7 and he was a N, he again took the ASTB for his 3rd and last time and ended up with a PFAR of 8 and then he was picked up. We had a few other examples but his was the best as the only, and I mean only thing that changed was he studied and retook the ASTB.

Important thing to remember are: minimal time to review applications, they need to pick people who have the best chance of making it through flight school (saves the USN money), and if you have a legal/moral waiver your application will get a harder look than anyone else so that person needs to address it and address it well.
 

Ghost SWO

Well-Known Member
Contributor
You must remember they take just a quick look at the applications, the only real predictor as to the chances of a person getting through the pipeline is the ASTB that is why it is king, GPA when it comes to aviation has not been a big factor at all (unless it really sucks then it can be an issue)

Yes there are people with high GPA's that are not selected, sometimes there are factors that people don't disclose such as waivers for non-medical issues. I know there were people on this site from my NRD who that were not selected that had decent scores, some disclosed in the threads they had a legal/moral waiver, others did not disclose it. Then there are those with lower ASTB scores that are picked up, often it is just a numbers game, and some get lucky.

The number of applicants selected for aviation that have done really nothing outside of school far exceeds those selected from other designators as the most important thing is the ability to get through flight school. The best example I have is I had a guy who was a D1 athlete, 3.5 ish GPA, and good degree, however his PFAR was a 5 on his 1st board and he was a N, he second board his PFAR was a 7 and he was a N, he again took the ASTB for his 3rd and last time and ended up with a PFAR of 8 and then he was picked up. We had a few other examples but his was the best as the only, and I mean only thing that changed was he studied and retook the ASTB.

Important thing to remember are: minimal time to review applications, they need to pick people who have the best chance of making it through flight school (saves the USN money), and if you have a legal/moral waiver your application will get a harder look than anyone else so that person needs to address it and address it well.
I've seen you mention that story in passing but not as completely as you said it now, that's pretty crazy. I think that makes a lot of sense. If you need to get through 230 applicants in one day, ASTB is the one of easiest ways to do it.

I know I said something a little too spicy if you throw in a response, always appreciate your insight! lol.
 

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
I've seen you mention that story in passing but not as completely as you said it now, that's pretty crazy. I think that makes a lot of sense. If you need to get through 230 applicants in one day, ASTB is the one of easiest ways to do it.

I know I said something a little too spicy if you throw in a response, always appreciate your insight! lol.
A lot of what you said is valid for other designators, aviation is unique, I have seen people picked up with 2 DUI's, poss of MJ, cocaine use, assault convictions, pretty much everything that would get people a N in any other designators.
 

Ghost SWO

Well-Known Member
Contributor
A lot of what you said is valid for other designators, aviation is unique, I have seen people picked up with 2 DUI's, poss of MJ, cocaine use, assault convictions, pretty much everything that would get people a N in any other designators.
LOL good lord. Well, that's interesting. I know just about every branch is struggling to retain pilots, is retention the key issue leading to accessions of individuals like that?
 

Coriolanus

Pro-Rec SNA
LOL good lord. Well, that's interesting. I know just about every branch is struggling to retain pilots, is retention the key issue leading to accessions of individuals like that?
Since I’m prior service I plan on riding pilot out till retirement, so hopefully I can get some sweet sweet retention bonuses for staying pilot
 

Ghost SWO

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Since I’m prior service I plan on riding pilot out till retirement, so hopefully I can get some sweet sweet retention bonuses for staying pilot
Yes! Same here. How many years did you do?

I did exactly four, so I'm pretty sure that doesn't count for the O1-E pay right? 16 years to retirement, I'll take it.
 

exNavyOffRec

Well-Known Member
LOL good lord. Well, that's interesting. I know just about every branch is struggling to retain pilots, is retention the key issue leading to accessions of individuals like that?
In all the cases I have seen they have had high ASTB's, and retention and accessions are tied as you can't substitute an Ensign for a LCDR, now on enlisted side there is more flexibility.
 

Coriolanus

Pro-Rec SNA
Yes! Same here. How many years did you do?

I did exactly four, so I'm pretty sure that doesn't count for the O1-E pay right? 16 years to retirement, I'll take it.
I actually did just under my four year contract. I got a waiver to separate a few months early for school. So if all goes as planned I’ll have just over 16. Although I’m willing to see what other options are available and maybe do more. Lots can change in 16 years!
 

Ghost SWO

Well-Known Member
Contributor
I actually did just under my four year contract. I got a waiver to separate a few months early for school. So if all goes as planned I’ll have just over 16. Although I’m willing to see what other options are available and maybe do more. Lots can change in 16 years!
Oh interesting, that doesn't happen often. What AFSC were you?

Yeah 16 years is a lot of time, but I'm sure once we get there it will have flown by lol. I would like to put on a star or two if possible. I think that would be really cool way to end a career. I've heard a lot of Navy pilots and NFO's talk about this golden road to Captain that doesn't involve as much flying as they want but I don't mind that. I do want to push to retirement and make Admiral. Along the way I need to work on fixing this, "I need to correct everything", nonsense cause that gets old for me, and for everyone else around me. No one likes a know-it-all, especially in command... Gotta find those good officer mentors.
 

Coriolanus

Pro-Rec SNA
Oh interesting, that doesn't happen often. What AFSC were you?
I got lucky because my job wasn’t high in demand... or so I’m assuming that’s why it was easy to do it.

You want to get above captain? Ooof that’s going to take work. I’m sure if you want it he’s enough you’ll do fine. Maybe big Navy will inspire me to also pursue that or even higher! My biggest worry is actually being wise enough to land a rank that high.
 

Ghost SWO

Well-Known Member
Contributor
I'm not putting a ProRec-Y on my name yet, whoever put the Y's for the people who put their dates on the Excel. I'm going to wait for the official notification, I just know I have a scheduled date, but don't have the ProRec-Y yet so I took that Y off for my name.

I got lucky because my job wasn’t high in demand... or so I’m assuming that’s why it was easy to do it.

Yeah that's nice, my job was critically manned so no bueno for me. Was difficult enough even discussing with leadership about trying to go "O" and take the AFOQT to put a package together.

You want to get above captain? Ooof that’s going to take work. I’m sure if you want it he’s enough you’ll do fine. Maybe big Navy will inspire me to also pursue that or even higher! My biggest worry is actually being wise enough to land a rank that high.
Yeaaah I think I've got lofty expectations but if I'm going back in I figured I might as well try for a star. I think a lot of the wisdom is OJT, and raw time spent in the Navy. I think if you get that high, you've learned a lot and you'll have competent officers around to aid you as well.
 

Marcus_Aurelius

Well-Known Member
I would like to put on a star or two if possible.

Along the way I need to focus on this, “I need to fix everything”’ nonsense that gets old for me, and everyone else around me.

Perhaps the one thing you COULD work on is a Public Affairs video thoroughly explaining the process we’re all currently in.

I absolutely love what AirWarriors does, aggregating information; but having to try to sift through the PNN (Private News Network/rumor mill) and the truth can be tedious.

I’d love for a good old-fashioned, “here’s the process laid out, here’s what we’re looking for, here’s a good way to measure your competitiveness, now submit a packet because Uncle Sam wants YOU” video.
 
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