A feeling of disappointment...

[niner61]

In any organization there are good and bad people, those who are there because they want to be and those who just go through the motions. Growing up as kid, I saw Naval Officers as possessing the highest degree of professionalism, the Navy as the greatest military service ever to have been created. I am 21 now, going into my 2/C year aspiring to be a Naval Aviator. I was a CP MIDN so I didn't have a chance to go to COTRAMID or a 2/C cruise.

Feelings of disappointment wash over as I listen to my fellow 2/C who just got off a destroyer 3 days ago. I am told of the opinions of the enlisted towards the officers. I am told of officers "not doing much". I am told of MIDN from the Academy or other ROTC units not holding themselves in a professional manner.

To convince myself that whatever I am hearing is not true, I offer words, "Well, what you experienced are a few officers out of thousands, one ship of hundreds and one community of many." His response, "The enlisted say it is the same everywhere."

I should have organized my thoughts more clearly but I guess what I am trying to ask is, Is this true? And if so, to what degree? I understand that in aviation there isn't the direct relationship you have with enlisted as you do as a SWO, but I'm sure it is still there. Hearing this pretty much ruined my whole day. Maybe it shouldn't effect me as much as it did, but growing up and hearing all those great things about Navy....well I hear some not so great things more and more. Where did we go wrong, how do we change it, what can I do to become a better person and a prospective Naval Officer.

 

[azguy]

Dude, take a deep breath and have another drink! A few observations as a SWO who just rolled off 4 years of sea duty...

Mids may or may not have a full grasp of the situation after cruising for a few weeks. That said, I'm sure many E's do genuinely have this opinion of their leadership. As a DIVO, I wasn't in the habit of justifying or highlighting my daily activities to each of my 25 Sailors. In retrospect, my Chief was likely the only one that had a clue what I did day to day. An officers job is very different than an E-4s.

There are bad apples in every profession... Navy officers, SWOs, are no exception. But the fact that you're hearing that all the officers on a ship "don't do much" means you're not getting the full story bro.

Enjoy the rest of college - it goes way too fast and you will miss it later on. Good luck picking up a scholarship and getting a commission, we'll see you out there...

 

[cfam]

First off, keep your head up. What you heard from your fellow MIDN is absolutely not true. There are good and bad people in every profession, and just because the sailors your friend met didn't have a high opinion of their officers doesn't mean anything. You said it yourself, those sailors have only seen a tiny sampling of the officers in the Navy.
Also, as a MIDN on summer cruise, I had absolutely no clue what was going on. Your friend only saw things from a sailor's perspective, likely a junior petty officer (the most likely running mate). You, and your friend, just don't have the experience at this point to form an accurate assessment. You'll need to experience the Navy first hand before assuming that sweeping generalizations are true.

I also disagree with your assumption that you don't have a direct relationship with your sailors as an aviator. Sure, you don't get a division from day one like your SWO counterparts, but you will certainly lead sailors during your first squadron tour. I have a division of 25 sailors right now, and that's fairly typical for a first tour junior officer.

Bottom line: Don't let the opinions of other MIDS/Sailors ruin your excitement about becoming an officer. You will meet good leaders, and you'll meet bad leaders, but I can definitely say that there's no other place I'd rather be working right now.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

There will always be ships that have issues, there will always be bad officers, bad CPO's, bad enlisted, it happens.

Now that you have heard what these others guys have said they saw learn from it, be aware of what is going on in your division, and don't let happen what your friends saw.

 

[FlyBoyd]

Your subordinates don't remember (or see for that matter) you working but they will definitely remember when you aren't.

Just remember this: If you have nothing to do, go do nothing somewhere else.

"Nothing" may be over simplifying what I am saying, but you get the idea.

Perception is reality. That is the real take away from what you have heard.

 

[LFCFan]

If being a SWO was such an easy job, you'd have people picking it over flight school and BUDs more frequently, and their retention rate would be a hell of a lot better. And they'd get some sleep. There is also a perception that also exists outside the navy that if you aren't doing some kind of manual work (or something other than office work) that you aren't really working.

 

[RiseR 25]

In any organization there are good and bad people, those who are there because they want to be and those who just go through the motions. Growing up as kid, I saw Naval Officers as possessing the highest degree of professionalism, the Navy as the greatest military service ever to have been created. I am 21 now, going into my 2/C year aspiring to be a Naval Aviator. I was a CP MIDN so I didn't have a chance to go to COTRAMID or a 2/C cruise.

Feelings of disappointment wash over as I listen to my fellow 2/C who just got off a destroyer 3 days ago. I am told of the opinions of the enlisted towards the officers. I am told of officers "not doing much". I am told of MIDN from the Academy or other ROTC units not holding themselves in a professional manner.

To convince myself that whatever I am hearing is not true, I offer words, "Well, what you experienced are a few officers out of thousands, one ship of hundreds and one community of many." His response, "The enlisted say it is the same everywhere."

I should have organized my thoughts more clearly but I guess what I am trying to ask is, Is this true? And if so, to what degree? I understand that in aviation there isn't the direct relationship you have with enlisted as you do as a SWO, but I'm sure it is still there. Hearing this pretty much ruined my whole day. Maybe it shouldn't effect me as much as it did, but growing up and hearing all those great things about Navy....well I hear some not so great things more and more. Where did we go wrong, how do we change it, what can I do to become a better person and a prospective Naval Officer.

Yeah dude, get some fresh air and relax. Everything will work itself out. The enlisted side doesn't always get the opportunity to see the officer side. Don't worry about it, just work your tail off when things get busy and relax when they aren't.

 

[Gatordev]

On my first deployment, things were slow and there was a lot of grumbling from many of the enlisted about how we weren't really do anything and how it sucked. On my second deployment, on the same ship, with mostly the same crew, doing the exact same mission, we were REALLY busy operationally doing exactly what we were out there to do. The same people were complaining about how busy we were.

Sometimes the reason the enlisted "do so much more work than the officers" is because it can be a full-time job just complaining. Don't take it personally. Also keep in mind, complaining is a collateral duty for officers, as well, they just shouldn't be doing it in front of the enlisted.

 

[helolumpy]

A bitching sailor is a happy sailor....

 

[Steve Wilkins]

I think one of the longest running past times and cherished naval traditions is that of the enlisted bitching about how little the officers do. I say that in jest, but the reality is that people have a tendency to repeat what they hear and want to agree with. This is what I mean...

Charlie: Hey Mike, I need a new phone. Which one do you think I should get?
Mike: You should definitely get the new Samsung Galaxy S4. It is totally bad ass.
Charlie: Oh, so you like it it a lot? Why is it better than an iPhone?
Mike: Dude, I don't know. Because it's not an iPhone I guess and everyone knows iPhones suck. I've just heard some pretty good things about the S4, that's all.
Charlie: Huh? So you've never used a Galaxy S4?
Mike: No, I still have this piece of shit BlackBerry.
Charlie: Oh, you've never used an iPhone either?
Mike: Nope. But they still suck. Apple sucks. Steve Jobs sucks. People that use iPhones are gay.
Charlie: Never mind then. I thought you knew what the fuck you were talking about.

Enlisted bitching about the officers was certainly a part of the culture when I enlisted in 1992, and I'm quite certain that it was around long before my time. When I transitioned from enlisted to officer in 1998, it was a huge eye opener. You probably think you know what it's going to be like because you've "talked to a lot of officers", "did CORTRAMID and got to do things the officers do and trained with them", etc, etc. Fact is...you won't know until you put on those Ensign bars. I guarantee you that your life will never be the same again. The vast majority of enlisted personnel, even at the senior level, have the luxury of not knowing what you have to deal with day in and day out. The phrase "ignorance is bliss" comes to mind here.

 

[Spekkio]

In any organization there are good and bad people, those who are there because they want to be and those who just go through the motions. Growing up as kid, I saw Naval Officers as possessing the highest degree of professionalism, the Navy as the greatest military service ever to have been created. I am 21 now, going into my 2/C year aspiring to be a Naval Aviator. I was a CP MIDN so I didn't have a chance to go to COTRAMID or a 2/C cruise.

Feelings of disappointment wash over as I listen to my fellow 2/C who just got off a destroyer 3 days ago. I am told of the opinions of the enlisted towards the officers. I am told of officers "not doing much". I am told of MIDN from the Academy or other ROTC units not holding themselves in a professional manner.

To convince myself that whatever I am hearing is not true, I offer words, "Well, what you experienced are a few officers out of thousands, one ship of hundreds and one community of many." His response, "The enlisted say it is the same everywhere."

I should have organized my thoughts more clearly but I guess what I am trying to ask is, Is this true? And if so, to what degree? I understand that in aviation there isn't the direct relationship you have with enlisted as you do as a SWO, but I'm sure it is still there. Hearing this pretty much ruined my whole day. Maybe it shouldn't effect me as much as it did, but growing up and hearing all those great things about Navy....well I hear some not so great things more and more. Where did we go wrong, how do we change it, what can I do to become a better person and a prospective Naval Officer.

That ship probably has a bad goat locker. Disgruntled Chiefs who bitch to their guys about an Ens/JG getting paid more but is clueless or feel like it's their job to undermine JOs because they've been in the Navy longer. Most enlisted guys who see what an officer does and the time it takes to do it wouldn't want the job and don't have that opinion, but middle enlisted ranks do get frustrated how little boot Ens/JGs know when they get to the ship compared to how much they know and the difference in pay. It's a little better for aviation because you show up with a pin, but in the surface/sub community you are just thrown to the wolves. You kind of have to roll with it and have a sense of humor about it and realize you have little authority until you get qualified. If an E4 and below is saying those things, he probably got his opinion from elsewhere.

On subs we also deal with it in terms of nukes/cone. An E3 told said "fucking lazy nuke" to an EMC. He didn't have enough time on board to develop that opinion on his own. He got crushed for it, of course.

The way to fix it is set an example. Qualify fast, learn your job, live and uphold standards consistently, and go to bat for the guys where appropriate. Won't change their opinion about 'officers' as a group but you'll command their respect.

 

[zippy]

Feelings of disappointment wash over as I listen to my fellow 2/C who just got off a destroyer 3 days ago. I am told of the opinions of the enlisted towards the officers. I am told of officers "not doing much". I am told of MIDN from the Academy or other ROTC units not holding themselves in a professional manner.

To convince myself that whatever I am hearing is not true, I offer words, "Well, what you experienced are a few officers out of thousands, one ship of hundreds and one community of many." His response, "The enlisted say it is the same everywhere."

I should have organized my thoughts more clearly but I guess what I am trying to ask is, Is this true? And if so, to what degree? I understand that in aviation there isn't the direct relationship you have with enlisted as you do as a SWO, but I'm sure it is still there. Hearing this pretty much ruined my whole day. Maybe it shouldn't effect me as much as it did, but growing up and hearing all those great things about Navy....well I hear some not so great things more and more. Where did we go wrong, how do we change it, what can I do to become a better person and a prospective Naval Officer.

Officers and Enlisted = apples and oranges. As an Officer you're involved in much more big picture type stuff while junior enlisted are involved in very specific type stuff and don't usually have an idea of whats going on, unless you, as their Divo, tell them. E's bitch about O's in general, and O's bitch about E's- welcome to the way the world works. Sometimes those bitches are valid and sometimes those are just bandwagon bitches. Either way, you shouldn't be letting your decision to becoming a good Naval Officer.

The idea that SWOs hold the cornerstone of leadership in the Navy is bullshit. They get put into those positions sooner, and the leash on them is generally reflective of that. Aviators hold leadership positions. An Aircraft Division Officer in a P-3 squadron has about 100 people who work for them. Thats significantly more than a SWO Divo gets their first tour (about 1/3 of the total compliment of a DDG actually). On a CVN, the largest Division is held by a Shooter and thats about 300 people (The compliment of a DDG), oh yeah and the CO of a CVN is an aviator. I don't highlight this to say that Aviators are better leaders than SWOs etc, but to provide an example of aviators being placed in some pretty large leadership positions, even though the training they go through causes them to take longer to get there.

 

[LET73]

The main thing to do as an ensign is be willing to learn, and you're going to learn things from the enlisted guys. When you show up at your first command, almost all of them will have significantly more fleet experience than you. Learn about what they do, talk to them about their jobs, and generally act like a decent human being, and you'll be fine. There will always be people complaining about their leadership, and sometimes those complaints are valid, and sometimes they're because the people complaining don't have the full picture.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

...in the surface/sub community you are just thrown to the wolves. You kind of have to roll with it and have a sense of humor about it and realize you have little authority until you get qualified.

Huh? I never once saw a new JO come onboard and have an authority issue because he wasn't qualified.

 

[BackOrdered]

Huh? I never once saw a new JO come onboard and have an authority issue because he wasn't qualified.

He meant "credibility", which is true. Unlike aviation where you guys enter an operational tour pinned assuming you finished flight school, in the surface and subs there is a "haves" and "have nots" culture and alot of toothcutting.