A feeling of disappointment...

[Flash]

Interesting...why? Instead of ENS, they show up as a LT with zero leadership and operational experience, whereas their counterparts have already been around the world and lead Sailors in the fleet for years...

I flew my first operational flights as an Ensign and in just two years was mission commander of the only aircraft of its type in theater with its 24 crew, and a national asset to boot. And my experience wasn't anything too special in Naval Aviation, like many URLs in the Navy you are given enormous responsibility as soon as you can handle it.

That and I didn't have to put up with any of the unprofessional and idiotic abuse that at least according to this thread is common among submariners and some SWOs. I flew and served with a great group of people who wanted to fly and had fun doing it, enlisted and officer, supported by first rate people who supported us. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

 

[azguy]

I flew my first operational flights as an Ensign and in just two years was mission commander of the only aircraft of its type in theater with its 24 crew, and a national asset to boot. And my experience wasn't anything too special in Naval Aviation, like many URLs in the Navy you are given enormous responsibility as soon as you can handle it.

That and I didn't have to put up with any of the unprofessional and idiotic abuse that at least according to this thread is common among submariners and some SWOs. I flew and served with a great group of people who wanted to fly and had fun doing it, enlisted and officer, supported by first rate people who supported us. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

Right on. We're all a product of our experiences - sounds like ours were similar. I had some awesome DHs, COs, crews, and teams; overall very glad that I went SWO vs pilot given my specific circumstances. I'm sure I would have had a great time had I been a pilot though too. Like with anything else, attitude, drive, and personality have a lot to with ones experiences in the Navy.

 

[bunk22]

Welcome to the Navy shipmate!

 

[exNavyOffRec]

I have no way to compare what it used to be to what it is now. However, the passing rate when I went through power school in '93 and prototype in '94 was 2.5 (62.5%)...as you mentioned, 2.5 to stay alive. Those senior/master chiefs you referenced were guys I went to school with. Now, if NNPS/NPTU has a lower threshold to earn the minimum now, that's a different story. However, that would be interesting given the amount of influence that NR has on the school house. Did they go to multiple choice tests or something?

It is significantly less, especially these days. I became a SWO in '99 and actually got to go through the 6 months of Divo school (SWOSDOC). A few years later, they stopped doing that altogether and started sending guys right to the fleet. And yet, somehow, they don't have the same issues with respect that you have alluded to as a submariner. As Kilroy mentioned above, it definitely sounds like being a submariner is hands down worse than being a SWO.

I remember the "2.5 to stay alive"

I had a brief a few years ago about enlisted nuke attrition, it used to be the majority of attrition was at "A" school or "NNPS", but in the past 6 years or so it shifted so now most of the academic attrition is in the fleet, the school house has become a pump vice a filter.

On the officer side I know of several that went through NNPS twice, yes twice, (SWO nukes) they didn't make the cut the first time so they sent them through again.

 

[RadicalDude]

...Similar issues with some CWOs as well ranging from mere customs & courtesies "Fuck that, I don't salute Ensigns/JGs" variety to more serious professional interaction issues...

SWOs and their JO saluting--so unnecessary. I remember watching an LT rip an Ensign a new one for not rendering him courtesies on the pier. So damn stupid.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

SWOs and their JO saluting--so unnecessary. I remember watching an LT rip an Ensign a new one for not rendering him courtesies on the pier. So damn stupid.

The JO relationship is not the same in SWOland as it is in aviation units. An O-3 in SWOland, while technically still a JO, is not a JO like you're talking about. He is most likely a DH if you saw him on the pier. And he could have bee a very senior DH. You have to remember, as an O-3 second tour DH tour, we are eligible to command a PC.

 

[BackOrdered]

The JO relationship is not the same in SWOland as it is in aviation units. An O-3 in SWOland, while technically still a JO, is not a JO like you're talking about. He is most likely a DH if you saw him on the pier. And he could have bee a very senior DH. You have to remember, as an O-3 second tour DH tour, we are eligible to command a PC.

I have to agree. A SWO O-3 DH may very well be the 3rd most senior Officer at his/her command and they don't wear kid gloves because he is "just an LT." He or she may have found themselves in the role of acting XO for whatever reason (XO is on leave, etc), which isn't taken lightly in SWOland.

 

[LET73]

Yeah, different cultures. Being on a CVN as an ensign, I got to see the intersection of the two. I played it safe and saluted. Sometimes the LT would smirk/roll his eyes/whatever and say, don't do that. As an LT now, I wouldn't say anything to an ENS one way or the other, and I also wouldn't say anything to a CWO. During my time with the Army, I did get chewed out for failing to salute a CPT (I was a JG at the time). So the Navy makes things a lot more confusing in the JO ranks.

 

[BigRed389]

SWOs and their JO saluting--so unnecessary. I remember watching an LT rip an Ensign a new one for not rendering him courtesies on the pier. So damn stupid.

Honestly, I personally don't give a shit. Pretty typical for O-1s not to salute O-2s for example. But we should at least be able to be consistent as a service. Until then, house rules with the instruction as a tiebreaker.

 

[Spekkio]

If you see an LT on a sea tour in our community, vast majority of the time they are serving as a DH. "Ripping someone a new one" for failing to salute is a little overboard no matter who it is, though. Most of the time they're spaced out/didn't see you/were occupied with something else.

Also, if you're going to forego customs and curteosies between ENS -> LT, you kinda sorta are giving the green light for senior enlisted to do the same thing.

 

[LET73]

If you see an LT on a sea tour in our community, vast majority of the time they are serving as a DH. "Ripping someone a new one" for failing to salute is a little overboard no matter who it is, though. Most of the time they're spaced out/didn't see you/were occupied with something else.

All true. Usually a "Good morning" and a look solves that problem, assuming you're within six paces and not at a weird angle. I had a CO who would yell "Good morning!" and want his salute well before you had a reasonable chance of seeing who he was. I'm happy to render the proper courtesies, but not from across the parking lot. On the other hand, there are those sailors who see an officer coming and turn away pretending to do something else so they don't have to salute.

Also, if you're going to forego customs and curteosies between ENS -> LT, you kinda sorta are giving the green light for senior enlisted to do the same thing.

Maybe. I would argue that there's a difference between how JOs interact with each other vs. how they interact with the goat locker, though. And given that LTs are DHs, hopefully they don't have the same issues with the chiefs as the ensigns do. If a chief thinks he doesn't have to salute a DH because the ensign didn't, something is probably off.

 

[Spekkio]

Maybe. I would argue that there's a difference between how JOs interact with each other vs. how they interact with the goat locker, though. And given that LTs are DHs, hopefully they don't have the same issues with the chiefs as the ensigns do. If a chief thinks he doesn't have to salute a DH because the ensign didn't, something is probably off.

It doesn't really matter -- the regs say to salute officers senior in rank to you. It doesn't make a +/- 1 rank rule for JOs. If you make an excuse why you're an exception, so can they. FWIW, we employed the +/-1 rule except for the DHs, but it does send mixed messages.

And given that LTs are DHs, hopefully they don't have the same issues with the chiefs as the ensigns do

Nope. Like I said, that stuff mostly went away when I started standing watch/duty and completely went away once I was fully qualified. Only problems that arose when the aforementioned COB tried to cross his 'positional authority' line, particularly to DHs, which didn't turn out as well for him when the XO/CO no longer protected him when he did so.

But I remember stuff like that clearly and the account OP heard is not too far off from what might happen at some commands.

 

[azguy]

Standard in the "shoe" world is the 'one bar rule' - ENS/JG is only real JOPA on a small boy. Vast majority of sea duty SWO LTs are Dept Heads and Command at Sea. Totally understand it's different in aviation... only took a few WTF looks from LTs in flight suits for me to figure it out.