A few IFR departure questions

[HAL Pilot]

No problem but would still like your inputs to the above questions. My understanding is if a dp says "clb to xxx ft prior to turning" that doesn't apply if given a hdg and alt from clnc or twr and I would disregard what was published and turn at 400agl. As for my second question if it states in the alternate takeoff min section that xxxft/nm is required for that rwy that min clb gradient does apply to any type of departure out of that rwy (even a vector) unless told otherwise.

Am I on the right track on this?

If tower gives you a heading and altitude, they have taken you off the DP so any DP restrictions no longer apply unless they direct you to resume the DP. Yes, turn at 400 agl.

Any required climb gradient would be listed on the each individual DP. If the tower is giving you radar vectors, they are responsible for your terrain avoidance and would give you any minimum needed rate of climb if other than normal. The gradient listed on the obsticle clearance departure is only valid for that procedure. However, when would you ever really use an obsticle clearance departure procedure? You would have to be taking off IFR without an assigned DP and not under radar control/contact (for example, an uncontrolled airfield with no DPs). Maybe if taking off IFR on vectors and you immediately go lost comm. Other than from a podunk airport with no tower and no DPs, I've never done it. It's mostly a general aviation or small commuter airline thing.

Disclaimer: I've only used Jeppesen charts for the last 14 years but from what I remember of NOAA and DOD, any required climb gradients are listed on the individual DPs and also missed approach instructions. It makes sense that it is this way as different DPs have different ground paths and therefore different terrain.

 

[AJTranny]

So, if you are given dept instructions from ATC prior to t/o you can assume std 200clb ft/nm reguired even if alternate.t/o mins chart says "...or standard with min clb gradient of 400ft/nm" for the rwy in use?

 

[ryan1234]

My understanding is that a short range clearance (assuming that's what you mean by 'instructions' that aren't a DP, etc) would be the same as the DVA... where ATC expects a 200ft/nm.

 

[HAL Pilot]

So, if you are given dept instructions from ATC prior to t/o you can assume std 200clb ft/nm reguired even if alternate.t/o mins chart says "...or standard with min clb gradient of 400ft/nm" for the rwy in use?

Yes, because once they start vectoring you, ATC would have to tell you if it was different and ensure you could accept the difference from standard.

 

[ATCS]

In response to the question - if ATC gives you a vector, are you still responsible to make the restrictions on a SID or STAR. The answer to this is... if you are given a SID in your clearance and the controller elects to give you a vector or even assign you a clearance direct to a point on the SID you are no longer on the publised SID and no longer required to conform to the restrictions.

As far as recieving an intial heading on departure from the control tower, it is not to be considered a vector. Air Traffic Control towers (as a norm) do not vector aircraft. That heading is used primarily to either get you into the correct departure sector or to seperate you from other local traffic. Or even to apply standard course divergence from other IFR departures.

Once the tower sends you over to departure then a radar controller will say the phrase that pays "Radar Contact". The controller either lets you maintain the tower assigned heading and intercept the departure or they will assign you a heading to join or maybe give an alternate instruction. This could be based on traffic or the ability to clear you on a better route ie. direct to a point on the departure or a random navaid along your route of flight. If it is appropriate the controller might even clear you direct your destination.

When a radar controll assigns a heading it is expected that the pilot execute the heading at that time unless it is prefaced with a restriction. Example " Navy 12345 climb and maintain 5000, after leaving 3000 turn left heading 090. If the controller is assigning a turn at whatever altitude you are at it is because that area has been flight checked and is at or above the minimum vectoring altitude (MVA).

Above all, remember you are responsible for the safe operation of the aircraft, if you have questions about an operation, check it out with your local ATC.

I hope this helps.

 

[ATCS]

If tower gives you a heading and altitude, they have taken you off the DP so any DP restrictions no longer apply unless they direct you to resume the DP. Yes, turn at 400 agl.

Be careful with this. If you are assigned an initial departure heading in your IFR clearance or if the tower assigns a heading prior to a take off clearance, it is not the same as a vector off an instrument departure procedure. It is simply an initial heading or a climb out instructions to transition you to the radar enviornment so you can join the SID. You haven't even started the DP yet. The departure controller will expect you to continue or join the departure procedure or assign alternate instructions after establishing radar contact. Do not confuse control tower clearances for radar vectors.

Once you start talking to the departure controller expect them to say something like "VV 12345 Radar Contact turn right heading 040 to join the Texas Two departure Ardmore transition, climb and maintaint one seven thousand. This is in no way taking you off the SID it is instructions to join. Now, if the departure controller says VV12345 Radar Contact cleared direct Ardmore climb and maintain one seven thousand. You have now been taken off the SID and do not have to make the published restrictions.

 

[HAL Pilot]

If I am given a vector by the controller that is not the same as on the DP verbage, I have been taken off the DP. If the controller gives the vector and follows with "join the XXX departure" that is a whole different story. This happens to us all the time and many times the vector given (by tower or departure) does not intercept the DP. If I rejoined a DP with out being told to by the controller after receiving a vector, I'd be given a violation.

A heading in the IFR clearance is a whole different thing and was not part of this discussion. You will not get both a heading and a DP in an IFR clearance unless it is an intercept heading and conforms with the DP (DPs that are purely radar vectors are yet another animal).

You will not find an airline pilot out there that will consider himself still on a DP if give a vector by either tower or departure that is not on the DP and does not contains the words "to intercept" or "to join".

You're trying to nickle & dime the presented scenarios with symantics.

 

[ATCS]

If I am given a vector by the controller that is not the same as on the DP verbage, I have been taken off the DP. If the controller gives the vector and follows with "join the XXX departure" that is a whole different story. This happens to us all the time and many times the vector given (by tower or departure) does not intercept the DP. If I rejoined a DP with out being told to by the controller after receiving a vector, I'd be given a violation.

A heading in the IFR clearance is a whole different thing and was not part of this discussion. You will not get both a heading and a DP in an IFR clearance unless it is an intercept heading and conforms with the DP (DPs that are purely radar vectors are yet another animal).

You will not find an airline pilot out there that will consider himself still on a DP if give a vector by either tower or departure that is not on the DP and does not contains the words "to intercept" or "to join".

You're trying to nickle & dime the presented scenarios with symantics.

Thanks for concurring with exactly what I said. The point I am making is the misapplication of the idea that control towers vector you. Vectors are assigned by radar controllers and not control towers. The heading you recieve either from Clearance Delivery or Local Control (you call that position tower) is not a vector. It is usually a canned heading designed to put you directly on the DP then fly it. If not you will receive a vector to join or intercept it. If they don't do that then you are simply on an assigned heading. It might seem like nickle and dime to you, but maybe the person asking the question would like to know the the actual way the system works.

Lots of pent up hosility I see from those whopping 14 years of airline experience. Take a deep breath, plug in the next RNAV waypoint and scratch your nuts.

 

[ATCS]

Yes, because once they start vectoring you, ATC would have to tell you if it was different and ensure you could accept the difference from standard.

This is also incorrect. ATC will not ask you if you can comply with the standard rate of climb if they vector you. First off that is the pilot's responsibility. If you are unable to make a restriction that was assigned by ATC you are required to notify ATC in a timely manner. The controller has no way of knowing what the performance of your aircraft is, as it changes from each individule case based many factors like weight, fuel, and weather. Second, If they are vectoring you.....by your own account (which is correct) you are no longer on the DP so why would it apply. Just my nickels worth!!

 

[HAL Pilot]

^ You are nickle & diming it again. read the last three words of what you quoted: "difference from standard". Also read the context of the whole post. No shit they expect you to be able to maintain a standard rate.

Add 20 years of Navy flying to the 14 years of civilian flying. You're not going to earn that consulting fee here.

 

[ATCS]

S

^ You are nickle & diming it again. read the last three words of what you quoted: "difference from standard". Also read the context of the whole post. No shit they expect you to be able to maintain a standard rate.

Add 20 years of Navy flying to the 14 years of civilian flying. You're not going to earn that consulting fee here.

So what is your point? When was the last time you were given a vector and then asked if you can manintain the same rate of climb as perscribed on DP? My guess would be never. Don't bother with the consulting fee, I'm just here to help. Have a nice day.

 

[HAL Pilot]

S
When was the last time you were given a vector and then asked if you can manintain the same rate of climb as perscribed on DP? My guess would be never. Don't bother with the consulting fee, I'm just here to help. Have a nice day.

Out of Aspen about 5 years ago when I was flying a P-180 on the PITKN departure. Right after t/o, they asked if I could maintain a certain rate of climb and when I said yes, they vectored me left to join the backcourse outbound for my climb. BTW, that was a tower controller and not a departure controller too.

 

[KBayDog]

Is there anyone HAL won't fight with?

 

[ATCS]

Out of Aspen about 5 years ago when I was flying a P-180 on the PITKN departure. Right after t/o, they asked if I could maintain a certain rate of climb and when I said yes, they vectored me left to join the backcourse outbound for my climb. BTW, that was a tower controller and not a departure controller too.

Wow, someone get this guy a shovel. The tower controller couldn't possibly have provided you with a vector. They don't have any radar coverage at Aspen. It is strictly a VFR tower. After you get high enough there is a micro link to Denver Center. I am familiar with the area and the procedures.

 

[HAL Pilot]

I know it's a visual tower there. The PITKN is an RNAV departure which starts with what is basically a straight out heading. There is another DP that has a left turn to intercept the backcourse outbound. The tower controller basically switched our DPs without actually clearing us on the new DP. As we climb outbound on the backcourse we were picked up on radar and when clear of the valleys vectored on course. I flew a bunch out of Aspen when I flew corporate. This wasn't unusual and any pilot familiar with the area knew what was happening when given this by tower on t/o.