Abolish the Air Force! (yet again)

[LoneSailor]

I really liked this response:

Robert Farley: The Navy can handle it:


Briefly, for space I'm with David; the Navy can handle it. (There's a reason Captain Kirk was a captain and not a colonel, after all.)

:icon_tong

 

[Lanisem]

We have institutions because we've built them. When these institutions outlive their usefulness or fail as experiments, we can take them apart. :disguise_

wow.

Domestic security aspect is pretty clear. The author's main argument seems to pertain to his view of the "usefulness" of the AF.. and yes, he doesn't take into account the possibility of non counter-insugency conflicts in the future. Seriously though, it's not like the AF is a static entity that isn't capable of adjusting to the current situations and needs of our forces, and the author is out of line to call them a "failed expt.". although..I’m curious as to what extent logistics the AF actually provides for the armed forces as a whole.

 

[ftrooper]

Heavy bombers for CAS?????!!!! And just how many CAS sorties did those heavy bombers take on? Look at the graph in the article that talks about sorites overhead. 75% through Dec 01 in Afghanistan are Navy and Marine aircraft. So, in a conflict far from friendly US bases, with difficulties getting overflight rights and landing fields, who put up the aircraft overhead. The USAF, or the USN/USMC? The AF will tell you they dropped more ordnance, struck x number of targets, but they don't tell you that most of those are from B52s and B1s, doing near 24 hour long missions (is that overhead time flexible enough for CAS, when you have to take off 12 hours prior to getting there?) and dropping large loads of bombs on insignificant targets labeled Strategic targets. Read the Army General"s scathing report of their tactical coordination and CAS in the 2003 Artillery Review. Then see what he says about Marine and Navy Tac-air "When I called, they showed up...." What does the AF do very well, strat tankers and heavy airlift, although their centralized command loves to mess that up as well. They think they are doing you a favor by delaying your arrival in country, no matter that somewhere a tactical unit is waiting on their people to arrive. I'd bet you could put any VFA/ VMFA/ VMA or VAQ/ VMAQ against their AF equivalents, and they would outperform the AF not only at CAS, FAC (A), Armed Recce, SCAR, or especially overwatch for ground ops, but also at the AFs traditional and sacred deep strike and air superiority. The AF serviced 178 of the 2000+ targets requested by the Corps Commanders in Desert Storm. Out of 63,000 weapons releases. WTF??? The AF answer?The Corps Commanders weren't thinking "Deep" enough. You mean, aside from shaping their battlefield, fixing the Republican Guard so they could be destroyed, the Corps Commanders weren't thinking Deep enough. BS over 70% of the Republican Guard escaped Desert Storm over bridges the AF failed to target. And don't even start with Yugoslavia and the AF failures there. By the way, these numbers and facts all come from the AF Airpower Journal, and open source AF air war college readings. They should be placed under the department of the Army, and have a severe budget cut to get rid of all the fat.

 

[raptor10]

Heavy bombers for CAS?????!!!! And just how many CAS sorties did those heavy bombers take on? Look at the graph in the article that talks about sorites overhead. 75% through Dec 01 in Afghanistan are Navy and Marine aircraft. So, in a conflict far from friendly US bases, with difficulties getting overflight rights and landing fields, who put up the aircraft overhead. The USAF, or the USN/USMC? The AF will tell you they dropped more ordnance, struck x number of targets, but they don't tell you that most of those are from B52s and B1s, doing near 24 hour long missions (is that overhead time flexible enough for CAS, when you have to take off 12 hours prior to getting there?) and dropping large loads of bombs on insignificant targets labeled Strategic targets. Read the Army General"s scathing report of their tactical coordination and CAS in the 2003 Artillery Review. Then see what he says about Marine and Navy Tac-air "When I called, they showed up...." What does the AF do very well, strat tankers and heavy airlift, although their centralized command loves to mess that up as well. They think they are doing you a favor by delaying your arrival in country, no matter that somewhere a tactical unit is waiting on their people to arrive. I'd bet you could put any VFA/ VMFA/ VMA or VAQ/ VMAQ against their AF equivalents, and they would outperform the AF not only at CAS, FAC (A), Armed Recce, SCAR, or especially overwatch for ground ops, but also at the AFs traditional and sacred deep strike and air superiority. The AF serviced 178 of the 2000+ targets requested by the Corps Commanders in Desert Storm. Out of 63,000 weapons releases. WTF??? The AF answer?The Corps Commanders weren't thinking "Deep" enough. You mean, aside from shaping their battlefield, fixing the Republican Guard so they could be destroyed, the Corps Commanders weren't thinking Deep enough. BS over 70% of the Republican Guard escaped Desert Storm over bridges the AF failed to target. And don't even start with Yugoslavia and the AF failures there. By the way, these numbers and facts all come from the AF Airpower Journal, and open source AF air war college readings. They should be placed under the department of the Army, and have a severe budget cut to get rid of all the fat.

Thought provoking response, not doubting you, but do you have a link to the Artillery Review article or any other of the other sources?

 

[ftrooper]

I don't have that artillery review to link for you. I do know that the article was also quoted in a 2003 Air Power Review, believe it's Dec. Has an F16 CJ from Spengdahlem on the cover. The others are Ch4 "The Gaining of Air Control, Air Power Fights A Land War (can you beleive that bs!??), Problems in Air Tasking and Air Coordination, Caveats and Qualifications" by Benjamin Lambeth, and "Myths of the Gulf War" Dr Grant Hammon, Air Power Journal, Vol XII, no. 3, Fall 1998. Let me see if I can find the Artillery Article and link it on here. The AF has some great people and equiptment, but their corporate mindset is so far from reality it's pretty scary. And they spend so much time self-perpetuating their need to exist, it's like a self licking ice cream cone. The farther they get from the reality, the better they make themselves sound with some new "throughput" or "efficiency" figure.

 

[FLYTPAY]

Then see what he says about Marine and Navy Tac-air "When I called, they showed up...." What does the AF do very well, strat tankers and heavy airlift, although their centralized command loves to mess that up as well. They think they are doing you a favor by delaying your arrival in country, no matter that somewhere a tactical unit is waiting on their people to arrive. I'd bet you could put any VFA/ VMFA/ VMA or VAQ/ VMAQ against their AF equivalents, and they would outperform the AF not only at CAS, FAC (A), Armed Recce, SCAR, or especially overwatch for ground ops, but also at the AFs traditional and sacred deep strike and air superiority. The AF serviced 178 of the 2000+ targets requested by the Corps Commanders in Desert Storm. Out of 63,000 weapons releases. WTF??? The AF answer?The Corps Commanders weren't thinking "Deep" enough. You mean, aside from shaping their battlefield, fixing the Republican Guard so they could be destroyed, the Corps Commanders weren't thinking Deep enough. BS over 70% of the Republican Guard escaped Desert Storm over bridges the AF failed to target. And don't even start with Yugoslavia and the AF failures there. By the way, these numbers and facts all come from the AF Airpower Journal, and open source AF air war college readings. They should be placed under the department of the Army, and have a severe budget cut to get rid of all the fat.

When I was assigning kill-boxes in the CAOC, the AF was the most UNFLEXIBLE bunch of assclowns I could imagine. If I knew there was something good going down, I would give it to the Marines, the Brit Tornadoes or F-18s, and lastly the AF. There are numerous factors that go into this decision such as gas, comm/link suites, but the AF was consistently the fat kid in gym class when we were picking teams.

 

[ftrooper]

When I was assigning kill-boxes in the CAOC, the AF was the most UNFLEXIBLE bunch of assclowns I could imagine. If I knew there was something good going down, I would give it to the Marines, the Brit Tornadoes or F-18s, and lastly the AF. There are numerous factors that go into this decision such as gas, comm/link suites, but the AF was consistently the fat kid in gym class when we were picking teams.

I'm sorry you had to work in the deathstar with them. I have to interact with them almost daily here, but they're like the kid that mixes up football with baseball. "We need you to play lineman" AF:"no way, we have to play short stop" US:"WHAT?!" I'm not a fan of the staff job, but I'll take this job at least being with the MAW over being there any day. Other than the 3 beers a day there, I'd probably go insane. My friends that were there were absolutely amazed at the ass-clownery that goes on.

 

[FLYTPAY]

I'm sorry you had to work in the deathstar with them. I have to interact with them almost daily here, but they're like the kid that mixes up football with baseball. "We need you to play lineman" AF:"no way, we have to play short stop" US:"WHAT?!" I'm not a fan of the staff job, but other than 3 beers a day there, I'd probably go insane if I worked there. My friends that were there were absolutely amazed at the ass-clownery that goes on.

3 beers a day goes a long way when your buddies are bartending and you are drinking british beer or spirits ......that was the secret of my success