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Age 65

HooverPilot

CODPilot
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
The president signed the age 65 legislation into law and it went into effect yesterday. How do the "seasoned" membership see this impacting the industry?

I think that hiring will stagnate for several years as a result and I am thrilled that I snagged the bonus last year partially out of concern for this. What is going to happen to my the guys who have been hired lately but haven't started training yet?
 

HuggyU2

Well-Known Member
None
I personally don't want to get into this discussion again, as it is burning hot on a few other website I frequent. Suffice to say, many are unhappy, and some are rejoicing.
The prediction is that you buds waiting on class dates will be delayed.
 

FrankTheTank

Professional Pot Stirrer
pilot
I agree with Huggy: I don't think a discussion on this will contribute much to this Naval Aviation board... The worse generation ever can now add Airline Career stagnation to their list of Social Security and Medicare that they have screwed us youngins out of... Good thing they got theres and keep taking ours.... That is all I will say on the subject! It's here and that is it; expect longer to get hired by a Major and stagnation therafter...:icon_rage

The End.. BB
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
There is a 50-50 chance that this will stop my recall to Hawaiian in January. I am very pissed off.

I recently turned down a pretty good job because I was recalled and I also stopped a forum member from walking my resume into his airline. Both were great opportunities that are now no more as both are done hiring for a while. Further, if my recall is canceled and I don't get recalled by January 2009, I lose my rights at Hawaiian.

It was suggested to me that a lawsuit against APAAD and the other groups that pushed for age 65 might be in order if this happens. I don't know what it would involve or what it would take to get one rolling, but for the first time in my life I see merit to filing a lawsuit for damages.

I also think this is actually a good subject to bring up here. It does not have a direct impact on Naval Aviation but many of the pilots on this site desire airline careers after their military service. This gives them an insight to the dark side of commercial aviation.

I also think we would be a lot more rational and civil about it then on those other sites Huggy referes to (and that I also belong too but never post on).
 

Ektar

Brewing Pilot
pilot
What exactly brought about the increase in the mandatory retirement age? Honestly, I have been so swamped with just keeping up with primary I haven't been following this little saga. I had heard there was supposed to be a forecasted demand for airline pilots, so is that way this was signed into law? To prevent a shortage of pilots once the mandatory retirements would have cut done the cadre of airline pilots down?

Just a curious SNA who one day may be interested in the airlines...
 

FrankTheTank

Professional Pot Stirrer
pilot
What exactly brought about the increase in the mandatory retirement age? Honestly, I have been so swamped with just keeping up with primary I haven't been following this little saga. I had heard there was supposed to be a forecasted demand for airline pilots, so is that way this was signed into law? To prevent a shortage of pilots once the mandatory retirements would have cut done the cadre of airline pilots down?

Just a curious SNA who one day may be interested in the airlines...


$$$$$$$$$$$

Them- That is it.... Got mine.. Lost mine/Blew mine.... Want more!

Us- Same... Except.. Haven't gotten ours.. Gettin taken away.. Want more!

Can't make it any more simple than that..

Regardless of circumstances, we all new Part 121 retirement age was 60!

Sorry, said I was not gonna comment further on the subject but just got back from an Out and Back and Captain (against) and I discussed this all the way back to the planet and I am more angry than I have ever been over the subject...:icon_rage


Thanks APAAD, ALPA and that douchebag, Prater... Whom I quote, "We do not want Congress to legislate Far regulations and that is why ALPA needs to change it's position of opposition to the Age 60 rule.." FUCKIN LIAR
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
I am more angry than I have ever been over the subject...:icon_rage
500 over 60 FEs all scrambling for Captain seats will do that to you....:icon_rage

Or in my case, HAL ALPA e-mail talking about every aspect of this except what is happening with the scheduled recalls.....because junior guys really don't matter. But boy did they quickly research how much it is adding to the senior guy's retirement plans. :icon_rage

You know, you guys are right. There is no good that will come from this thread and it just makes my high blood pressure go to dangerous levels despite my medication.....
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
I agree with Huggy: I don't think a discussion on this will contribute much to this Naval Aviation board... The worse generation ever can now add Airline Career stagnation to their list of Social Security and Medicare that they have screwed us youngins out of... ..
That's just completely wrong.

First: this IS the commercial aviation forum on Air Warriors -- where else would one discuss something of such importance??? Many/most of the guys who fly for UNCLE will at one time or another investigate or actually go into commercial aviation and this is a huge part of the equation. 'Nuff said on whether or not it's "germane" to this board.

Second: Which Generation would that be, anyway ??? The ones who came before us and fought the battles, endured the furloughs, strikes, bankruptcies, and airline failures to put up a wall against the bureaucrats, politicians, and self-serving "management teams" ... that want you to work for 30K/year and a bag of rice.

Third: ALPA (the pilots - not the "leaders" who go with the prevailing wind) never wanted age 65 and YOU KNOW IT unless you've had your head stuck in the Mississippi mud all these years -- 'cept for a few who are greedy and/or those who lost ALL their retirement (do YOU want to walk in THEIR shoes?) in the airline wars of the past 8-10 years or so ... you're focusing your anger at "not getting yours" at the wrong guys.

Which "worst" would you talkin' about, Boom???

In any case ... like I say, it's always all about the $$$$$
 

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
It comes down to the same thing as many political battles--a small group of dedicated individuals lobbying government beats a broader, but non- or poorly-organized cross-section of individuals. The people that benefit from a higher retirement age are concentrated and directly affected and lobby government. The group harmed is indirectly affected and spead out. Who do you think will win. Just like with farm subsidies--the group hurt by them (all food buyers) each only lose a few bucks and doesn't organize. the group that's getting the benny is directly affected an organizes accondingly.
 

tk628

Electronic Attack Savant
pilot
Ultimately I see this as a band aid to a much larger issue. Whether it can be seen clearly or not, there is a shortage of pilots on the horizon. FBO's are taking training out of their services, because really its too darn expensive for the local folk to afford.

Even the pilot mill college I went to (University of Illinois) has seen a decline in enrollment in their Aviation program. It also comes simply down to $$$. Do you want to go pay $100,000 in costs, for a job making $18,000 the first year.

Additionally the quality of instruction has severely declined in the past 10-15 years. This is coming from a CFI, the days where the Vietnam vet who brought his thousands of hours of knowledge to a student, has been replaced with a 250 hour kid, teaching other kids, in the interest of "making" airline pilots out of them.

The CFI's of today see instructing as more of a required check in the box, and thus the instruction has suffered. Beyond that, the regionals have become so desperate for pilot's I have friends getting hired with 250TT and a Multi to go be a button pusher in a ERJ/CRJ. Thus the amount of these "instructors" has become a large issue for flight schools.

You all make valid points about someone just wanted to get back at the man for taking their pension, its probably true. But the underlying factor bleeds back to the over inflated salaries of the 1990's. When a heavy captain gets used to making $250,000 a year, and is expecting his $1 million check at 30 years, these guys are having to make big life changes to live on that $150,000:-/

Don't get me wrong I don't see this as being good for aviation. The career stagnation is going to kill aviation from the bottom up. At least yesterday, that $18,000/year was a 2-3 year upgrade to the mid $50's, now.... not so much.
 

FrankTheTank

Professional Pot Stirrer
pilot
It comes down to the same thing as many political battles--a small group of dedicated individuals lobbying government beats a broader, but non- or poorly-organized cross-section of individuals.

Well Said!

In any case ... like I say, it's always all about the $$$$$

We agree on something... But with a system that is based on Seniority there are certain expectations and one of those just got removed... How much more is the over 60 gonna really save or contribute to a retirement plan.. ZERO.. They are gonna spend it all just like they always have..

And in regards to ALPA.. I have met and spoke with Prater and this is all I have to say... Heard in person,, FDX pilots did not want the change but our MEC voted at the Exec Council for it against our membership...

"We do not want Congress to legislate Far regulations and that is why ALPA needs to change it's position of opposition to the Age 60 rule.."

I will concede that perhaps this thread is not entirely for lack of a better term 'Not important to this board' but with us junior FOs you might see an angry and frustrated side...
 

FrankTheTank

Professional Pot Stirrer
pilot
there is a shortage of pilots on the horizon.

TK.. Because they pay shit wages at the regional level... Hell CFIs make less than they used too... Basic supply and demand.. Right now the supply is getting low because the demand (though high) ain't worth it.. And getting to the big bucks just got slowed down by 5 years....:confused:
 

tk628

Electronic Attack Savant
pilot
TK.. Because they pay shit wages at the regional level... Hell CFIs make less than they used too... Basic supply and demand.. Right now the supply is getting low because the demand (though high) ain't worth it.. And getting to the big bucks just got slowed down by 5 years....:confused:

Pretty much my point.....
 

loadtoad

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Well Said!
How much more is the over 60 gonna really save or contribute to a retirement plan.. ZERO.. They are gonna spend it all just like they always have..

Not true - My dad has been very conservative with his money, has a lot put away for retirement and has absolutely no payments of any kind.

He was coming up on retirement hitting the 60 mark in a couple of years. Now he is going to keep going for a couple extra years but not until 65. Because of money? Nope, because he likes flying international and doesn't want to quit... The money is just an extra bonus. Loving flying is the whole reason he did not retire early in the first place.

As somebody said above its a seniority thing. If you are on the top after 20 some odd years and they say "hey you wanna keep flying" would you think to yourself - "na, I need to make room for the younger guys. CFI billy bob needs a job." Maybe for a second...

I totally understand both sides of the argument and agree with both sides. Hell, my dad has even said that SOME pilots NEED to be retired by age 60 or they should perhaps have a little stronger yearly check for the old farts because of losing their SA or whatever.

All I know is this... I have a loooooooooooong time to go in the Navy and I doubt I want to go to the airlines anyway. Probably will all be robots by that point anyways:icon_tong
 

FrankTheTank

Professional Pot Stirrer
pilot
Now he is going to keep going for a couple extra years but not until 65. Because of money? Nope, because he likes flying international and doesn't want to quit... The money is just an extra bonus. Loving flying is the whole reason he did not retire early in the first place.

Sorry.. I don't buy it... This is a job.. If he loves flying then by a Pitts and do some fun stuff.. But positive rate, gear up enroute to some ILS is not the 'FUN' stuff... And he got his seat and senority because somebody before him retired... Or went out on Medical... Or some expansion/growth.. It is all about $$$... Both sides of the argument...

As somebody said above its a seniority thing. If you are on the top after 20 some odd years and they say "hey you wanna keep flying" would you think to yourself - "na, I need to make room for the younger guys. CFI billy bob needs a job." Maybe for a second...

No you don't do it for Billy Bob... You do it because the rule was retirement at 60... You retire, enjoy life and fly part-time for fun.. Go get a Gulfstream type rating, buy something general aviation... But you have been gone for 2 weeks a months for the last who knows how many years, you stay home and get a hobby and maybe see your wife, family, grandkids, etc.. And in turn the career progression that you got is the same for those behind you.. Even if that means furloughs, bankruptcies, etc.. At least they get the same fair shake (or lack there of) that you got...

That is also my last comment on this matter... Because announcement of this change and how it affects folks may be beneficial to this board...
HOW WRONG IT IS AND MY THOUGHTS THERE IN ARE NOT!
 
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