AH-1Z and UH-1Y Doomed?

[Flash]

I think the 60 would make an excellent replacement for the Huey in all roles they currently perform.
I think that there is still a need for a dedicated attack platform like the Cobra, the Marine Corps really doesnt have much ground based fire support available hence the need for R/W and F/w CAS. Some of the selling features of the Cobra is the small size, its only 3'8" across, very hard to hit when it is attacking you.
I know the 60 can be modified to carry almost everything we carry but I honestly think that there is enougn utility missions to keep the UH and its replacement busy necessitating the need for a dedicated attack Helo.
That and I like my job and would like to keep it a while longer.

How about the Eurocopter Tiger? It looks like it costs $35-$48 million, how much are the cost projections for the AH-1Z? You will not have to do as much testing because it has already been developed. Just a thought.....

 

[Gatordev]

Then we can have an entire US armed forces fleet of helos built by EC. The EC is the front runner in the LUH, we can have the Tiger flying combat missions, the CG has their re-engined Dauphin (not EC, I know, but still), and the POTUS can run around in the EH-101. Meanwhile, McDonnell-Douglas has a new CEO, but still can't get parts sent to her to build her helos. Craziness.

 

[HeyJoe]

How about the Eurocopter Tiger? It looks like it costs $35-$48 million, how much are the cost projections for the AH-1Z? You will not have to do as much testing because it has already been developed. Just a thought.....

Never happen IMHO. Sikorsky tired to inject the 60 into the 4BN/BW (As it was known in early 90s) program, but USMC wanted commonality AND the original plan was to upgrade the current airframes (supposedly cheaper). A lot of commitment to overcome. The technical or producibility issues will have to get really bad before they seek an alternative.

 

[Flash]

@Flash:

Over the years, I've heard similar complaints about Bell, but it's never been more specific than what you posted. I haven't really heard anyone say anything bad about the current crop of Sikorsky products, except for age, so it always makes me wonder if the Bell complaints are real or just "what I heard."

I always ask for specifics when someone tells me something like that. One of the guys' specific complaints was about accepting birds from PDM. When a pair of Marines went to pick on eup from Bell one time they were on the way back when they crashed becasue of maintenance problems and both pilots were killed. When the next set of guys went to pick up a bird that had just got done with depot they went of the helo with a fine tooth comb and refused to take it because of numerous problems with the bird. After heated arguments with Bell insisting the bird was good the Marines finally called thier CO and he backed them. When the Bell pilots went to fly the helo back Bell said it was not okay to fly. He said that was just one of many stories.

This was a few years ago so things might be different but all of the Cobra guys were pretty adamant in their opinions about Bell back then.

 

[Flash]

Never happen IMHO. Sikorsky tired to inject the 60 into the 4BN/BW (As it was known in early 90s) program, but USMC wanted commonality AND the original plan was to upgrade the current airframes (supposedly cheaper). A lot of commitment to overcome. The technical or producibility issues will have to get really bad before they seek an alternative.

It sounds like it might be getting pretty bad. Plus, how much is the DOD willing to keep putting money up for 'commonality' when it will cost you an arm and leg up front?

 

[Flash]

Then we can have an entire US armed forces fleet of helos built by EC. The EC is the front runner in the LUH, we can have the Tiger flying combat missions, the CG has their re-engined Dauphin (not EC, I know, but still), and the POTUS can run around in the EH-101. Meanwhile, McDonnell-Douglas has a new CEO, but still can't get parts sent to her to build her helos. Craziness.

Let the best helo win.......capitalism at its best.......

 

[skidkid]

Yeah the rebuild idea was a non starter and I think they blew sunshine up some people's skirts. Let me get this straight we are going to shutdown a whole HMLA send all the birds to Bell for how long and not have birds to train the guys on until they get back so they are out of the fight for what 2 years good idea guys.

 

[goosegagnon2]

speaking of other countries don't the aussies fly a -60 "battlehawk?"..just throwing that one out there I wonder if they have any success with it, but I am not sure if it is quite the same mission...

 

[RLSki]

As for the H-60 playing a role in the Marine Corps, it was seriously looked at for a replacement for the H-46. Due its inability to load palletized cargo, HQMC took their focus off the H-60. I will tell you that it is currently being looked at to replace the UH-1 if the November/Zulu program falls apart. There are talks about purchasing the Navy model (shorter tail wheel) and hanging stub wings much like the TF-160 DAP. Should be a great asset to Marine Corps Aviation with the ability to do small team, over the horizon inserts and still provide a CAS capability.

 

[skidkid]

speaking of other countries don't the aussies fly a -60 "battlehawk?"..just throwing that one out there I wonder if they have any success with it, but I am not sure if it is quite the same mission...

No, the Aussies had a choice between the Zulu and the Europcopter Tiger and opted for the Tiger (not a bad call since it is in service right now)
They bought it to replace single engine Hueys in the attack Helo role. It is interesting that many countries that nevr posessed an attack helo role in the past, choosing to arm a utility bird instead are now buying dedicated attack platforms. The British, Italians, Germans, Australians, South Africans and Japanese to name a few.

 

[ChuckMK23]

....cough....h-60....cough...

The Marine Aviation leadership are insufferable fools if they don't get rid of the UH-1 and replace it with the MH-60S - it's time they wake up.

 

[1rotorhead]

The H-60 would be a great replacement for the Huey. More range, more people, faster, etc. Not a good replacement for the Cobra. Not a good platform for serious CAS.

 

[HueyCobra8151]

Is there a HUGE difference between the UH-1Y and the SH-60B?

The Yankee would be faster at the expense of less endurance and less payload w/ the benefit of retaining commonality w/in the HMLA Squadron.

Too bad there aren't any (at least I believe not) Huey drivers on here, would like to hear their opinions on the matter.

 

[Gatordev]

Is there a HUGE difference between the UH-1Y and the SH-60B?

A lot less seats. The 60S would probably be a better choice, although you'd lose the shortened tailwheel. Seems like you could build a 60C. Take out the sono-launcher, MAD, and accoustics and put seats in their place.

I always ask for specifics when someone tells me something like that. One of the guys' specific complaints was about accepting birds from PDM. When a pair of Marines went to pick on eup from Bell one time they were on the way back when they crashed becasue of maintenance problems and both pilots were killed. When the next set of guys went to pick up a bird that had just got done with depot they went of the helo with a fine tooth comb and refused to take it because of numerous problems with the bird. After heated arguments with Bell insisting the bird was good the Marines finally called thier CO and he backed them. When the Bell pilots went to fly the helo back Bell said it was not okay to fly. He said that was just one of many stories.

Yeah, that's retarded. Hello? Acceptance FCF? That's why we're here!!!

 

[squorch2]

As for the H-60 playing a role in the Marine Corps, it was seriously looked at for a replacement for the H-46. Due its inability to load palletized cargo, HQMC took their focus off the H-60.

Odd, the 60S takes palletized cargo just fine... maybe the shutting down the engines thing to on/offload it was the kicker.