Airframe

[reapergm]

Im not questioning or commenting on your efforts to earn your ranks... Im just saying being a pilot.. short changed or not, JET or not.. is a damn good gig. Dont think that I am saying that you havent earned it.. dont misread the post. Hell yeah, its hard work.. its alot of time. But look at people with the cubicles, wondering about how they are going to pay their morgages, thinking about their dreams.. etc. Most of you are living the dream you always had. Am I right? All Im saying is dont forget that, and dont take it for granted. I know youve paid your dues. Thats awesome.

 

[phrogdriver]

To get back to the original point, no one cares that you prefer jets. Good for you. I'm sure lots of people do. I've don't have a problem with that. However, if you really are so boresighted on them that you would be unhappy with anything else, the Marine Corps is not for you. More than half our pilots fly helos. Yes, everyone makes his own odds, but someone has to fill those seats. If you want f/w in general GO USAF--they have very few helos. If you want guaranteed TACAIR, apply for an active-duty slot in the Air National Guard. If a unit flies F-16s, and you're accepted, that's what you'll fly.

 

[lugginjugs]

All of that said, at this point in time, I agree that there is a better chance of getting jets in the Marine Corps. The Air Force is a dog fight just to get a flight slot and the Navy hasn't handed out too many over the last few months. You are nearly 2 years from selecting if you go Marine. Stay honest, stay focused, and if you keep few expectations you will be seldom disappointed.

 

[squeeze]

Reapergm,
I don't care about comments, I realize you meant nothing, but posts like that get reamed on aviation forums because you will automatically be targeted as the guy who'd undercut the next, just cause he "loves" to fly.

If the market doesn't demand a high salary, then the employers certainly aren't going to feel obliged to pay one. This, my friend, is capitalism in action. It's hardly fair to knock those willing to do the job out of love just because it hurts those who wan't a lot of money. This didn't apply so much earlier on when commercial training wasn't as available as it is today. Now that it's opened up to the masses, it's only natural that salaries will decline as it becomes not so much a 'less-skilled-job' but one that has a much greater pool of potential employees to draw from.

 

[Warlord]

With the more advanced technology of today's and future aircraft in the airline industry, what are anyone's thoughts on the airlines taking "less skilled" pilots in the future because they'll take less pay. I would think that maybe with technology (and I'm worried about this) that it may take a lot less skill in the future to fly for, say Delta, so why would they need one of the best trained pilots in the world (a Navy pilot)? Would they lose their marketability that they have now because they ARE so skilled? It seems to me that if this were the case, then there would be more pilots staying in the Navy, but then again, I have no clue what I'm talking about... don't know a whole lot abot the airline industry as of yet.

 

[Warlord]

oops.. just read Squeeze's post... sorry for the "re-reply"... didn't see pg. 2

 

[phrogdriver]

Squeeze is right on. The pilot situation is pure supply and demand in action. Being a pilot is seen as such a good job in and of itself that an insane number of people are in the market. Why should an airline pay a high wage for a pilot when there are 10 others with plenty of hours ready to take his place. The current state of the business makes it worse, but the underlying problem will be there as long as there is a surplus of pilots. The re-alignment of the industry towards RJs will only serve to further limit the number of high-salary positions. Once the old hands retire on the big jets, the new guys are still not going to achieve the same high salaries. See the "10 guys ready to take your place."

First, the state of airlines is a big reason to stay military. Most pilots are at about 10 years in when they are eligible to leave. Going to the RJs, or even worse, commuters, is taking a 50% pay cut. Then by the time you get to the point you'd be exceeding your old pay, your contemporaries are LtCols. They can either stay in and still earn good money, or retire, live of their gov't checks and get a job counting seashells or picking their asses.

Second, this helo gig ain't so bad after all...that EMS or petroleum job that starts at $40K and tops at $60K doesn't sound so bad when comparing it to an airline job that starts at $25K.

 

[invertedflyer]

Its a good thing I don't plan to fly for the airlines... I am one of those that would "fly for less" .... live on the taxiway in a makeshift tent, sleep in the cargo bay on cold nights etc. Besides... wake turbulence, the smell of JP-5 .... what better way to wake up in the morning?

 

[46Driver]

4 quick points:

1) A SCAB is someone who crosses a picket line, not someone who will work for less.

2) The pay cut from being an O-3 with flight pay and bonus to a regional pilot flying an RJ is unfortunately more on the order of 75%, not 50%.

3) As for labor costs, take Delta for example. It has lost over $3B the last 3 years, including almost $400M last quarter. If I have read correctly, the value of its current pilot's contract is roughly between $1.5B and $1.8B annually. If that is cost is sliced in half (i.e., Delta pilots take a 50% pay cut) then the airline is in much better shape financially. So yes, labor is a significant variable cost - and the above numbers do not reflect the non-pilot employees at Delta.

4) Read about the ending of defined benefit pension plans in the airline industry (among others) here from "Business Week".
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_29/b3892001_mz001.htm

Be very grateful for a military retirement: whether an active duty or reserve one.

 

[phrogdriver]

Patmack, if you've experienced civil aviation and now you're in the military, something must have caused you to leave. Hell, 46Driver's an airline pilot and he does all he can to stay on active duty as much as possible!

While I am happy for the guy whose seniority will allow him to step into a $250K captain job, I still don't see how someone looking at the airlines today can realistically hope to pull that kind of cash.

I've never been a pilot for a commercial carrier, but I have been around long enough to know plenty who are. The end of a lot of flow-through arrangements means that many pilots will never get the big payday. You can pay your dues forever, but there is no longer a numerical hierarchy such that if one sticks it out, he will eventually make it big. You may eventually more into the medium-sized bucks, but the huge paydays are not going to be at the end of the rainbow for most pilots.

Being a pilot is seen much the same way as being a male porn star. It's such a good job, lots of people want to do it, so no one has to pay you that much. A few guys rake it in, but most are stuck with the daily (bump and) grind.

 

[reapergm]

Being a pilot is seen much the same way as being a male porn star. It's such a good job, lots of people want to do it, so no one has to pay you that much. A few guys rake it in, but most are stuck with the daily (bump and) grind.

Thats some funny $hit. Nice analogy. I guess phrogdriver sounds like a porn name...

 

[46Driver]

They'll take temporary consessions to help slow the bleeding, but pay rates won't come down.

Now back to your statement that there is no guarantee... if you're company stays in business, and you make it up the seniority list... yes you will see those big pay checks. However most airline pilots get laid off at least a few times in their career, and the economy can screw the airlines from great to crap in a week.


but making a point that flying for less money to weasle your way in makes you a scab, taking jobs from other guys willing to stand up for what their worth. Let the flaming begin....

Edit: Don't anyone read this as a flame, argument, whatever. I'm trying to figure out what basis guys are using for the continued argument that there's a change in the winds when it comes to pay scales.

.

From my perspective, UAL, USAir, AA have all taken roughly 33% to 50% concessions. Expect more to be taken out of UAL and USAir. Expect Delta to take 50% pay cuts. Expect the Defined Benefits plan to end. You think airline travel is simply in a cycle, I think it is in the middle of revolutionary change as I said before due to the transparency of internet pricing and LCC's taking market share. Legacy airlines are going to have to reduce costs to nearly match the LCC's to stay in business - as part of matching costs, payrates have to come down, down, down. Its called - literally - the "Wal-Mart effect." You will still have a very few guys making the big bucks, but due to seniority rules and longer military commitments, military guys will be fewer and fewer at the top.

If you are going to call flying the routes for less money, than everyone at Southwest, JetBlue, AirTran, and the regionals are all SCABS. I prefer to keep the definition pure: crossing a picket line although I will agree flying struck work is not good either.

The other thing is I am watching the number of guys returning to active duty because the pay and working conditions are better in the military. Must be 5 pilots here at EUCOM that I have seen recently leave AA and UAL to come on active non-flying duty. Meanwhile, I've got buds who quit flying as regional captains and FO's (several thousand hours of multi-engine jet) because the long term outlook for the industry is so bad. As PhrogDriver said, I stay on active duty as much as possible (we reservists call it "feeding at the trough") until I see if Independence Air makes it or not. If it is the latter, I'll find another line of work because its not worth it to start over.

PS: With the ending of the Defined Benefit Plans, you can expect ALPA to reverse course and eventually repeal the "Age 60" rule which will slow down seniority movement even more.

 

[Greaper007]

It also seems like the airlines are getting more polarized with the size of planes. With the new Airbus and more RJ's. Perhaps pay will follow this model in the future, a lot at the high and low end and less in the middle. Just a speculation.
I think you got it right with picking the right airline. My father was flying for People Express back in the salad days of deregulation. One of his friends was flying for Southwest. He let go of a few years of senority and hopped on with SWA. It looks like someone that took a chance with Jet Blue might recieve the same kind of benefits. Southwest is doing so well because it was an airline that had survived as a deregulation carrier during regulation. Thus they were in the perfect position to take over the markets that they did, and still are. I think a big problem is that the old breed carriers like American and Delta always had a hard time adjusting to the lower ticket prices that the rise of Airlines like Southwest brought. They still saw themselves as royalty and couldn't adjust. Thus they had a hard time adjusting to passengers that used to ride the bus. Just an observation.
Also earlier someone asked why not be a C-130 driver? I'd like to respond with saying that I would love to fly C-130's. I can't deny that I would love to fly fighters if I could though, I don't think any of us can.

 

[phrogdriver]

Also earlier someone asked why not be a C-130 driver? I'd like to respond with saying that I would love to fly C-130's. I can't deny that I would love to fly fighters if I could though, I don't think any of us can.

I can deny wanting to fly fighters. I wouldn't mind hitching a ride in one, in the same way that I would like to ride a Porsche, even though if I had that kind of money I'd rather buy a Hummer. Jets are fast and all, but you've got to consider the missions you'll be doing, and helos are more my style. You don't get more diametrically opposed in terms of mission than strike and C-130.

 

[Greaper007]

Patmack, my understanding is that the age 60 rule still applies for a number of reasons. One of the biggest factors is the strong lobbying efforts of the ALPA. Their pilots wanted to recieve their highest pay for a couple of years before they retired, and the airlines would have to make them retire at 60. Then their pension would be set on this salary right before retirement. Now with pensions getting depleted they want to raise the age to let their pilots weather out this storm.