another scandal at usna

[villanelle]

I'll gladly let the legal system run it's course, and I do hope that the consensual-then-turns-to-rape scenario never shows up there again.

And you meant to say that you also hope that the noncensual-then-turns-into-victim-bashing also never rears its head again, right?

Because I think it is pretty clear that both happen far too often.

I'd love to see some stats on rapes/alleged rapes at USNA vs. other universities. I suspect that if you could get good numbers, there would be little difference, but the "good numbers" part is likely impossible with under-reporting, CYA false accusations, etc.

The difference is that since the public "owns" USNA, it is under a microscope. If someone reports a rape at UCLA, it doesn't make local headline news, much less national. When you hear about every single incident at one place and only the most salacious from everywhere else, it can create a false impression that the former has a huge issue with sex crimes, when in fact, it is just another sampling of society. That's a issue only exacerbated by the fact that the academy takes every incident and immediately initiates serious disiplinary action, where as other campuses tend to let the cops quietly investigate it or even attempt to sweep it under the rug.

 

[a_m]

And you meant to say that you also hope that the noncensual-then-turns-into-victim-bashing also never rears its head again, right?

Because I think it is pretty clear that both happen far too often.

I'd love to see some stats on rapes/alleged rapes at USNA vs. other universities. I suspect that if you could get good numbers, there would be little difference, but the "good numbers" part is likely impossible with under-reporting, CYA false accusations, etc.

The difference is that since the public "owns" USNA, it is under a microscope. If someone reports a rape at UCLA, it doesn't make local headline news, much less national. When you hear about every single incident at one place and only the most salacious from everywhere else, it can create a false impression that the former has a huge issue with sex crimes, when in fact, it is just another sampling of society. That's a issue only exacerbated by the fact that the academy takes every incident and immediately initiates serious disiplinary action, where as other campuses tend to let the cops quietly investigate it or even attempt to sweep it under the rug.

I hope neither shows up again, but as long as you have that many people ~20 years of age, shenanigans will happen and someone will make a poor choice that will hurt/ruin the career of 2 people.

 

[wink]

... "While women’s studies professors bang pots and blow whistles at antirape rallies..."

You don't think this happens or that the rest of her paragraph is remotely true?

I hope you don't expect me to take your link any more seriously than you would a link from MotherJones.

Very open minded ain't we? You obviously don't know what you are talking about. The Manhattan Institute is no Mother Jones and Heather MacDonald's bona fides are well established. She is a sound researcher and good writer. If you can't bring yourself to finish the article now then take a look at the organization and the writer in more detail. There is no benefit to you in disregarding the piece simply because you don't agree with it.

 

[Flash]

Very open minded ain't we? You obviously don't know what you are talking about. The Manhattan Institute is no Mother Jones and Heather MacDonald's bona fides are well established. She is a sound researcher and good writer. If you can't bring yourself to finish the article now then take a look at the organization and the writer in more detail. There is no benefit to you in disregarding the piece simply because you don't agree with it.

I did look up both the Manhattan Institute and Heather MacDonald, wasn't greatly impressed with either one. Both are conservative and 'right-wing', and I would take anything written by them with a wary eye, as I would Mother Jones or some left-wing scribe. Plus, I am not sure I would trust an organization that was nothing more than a paid mouthpiece of the tobacco companies.

http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/orw87d00

http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/ntl01d00

As for the author, if she is such a sound researcher, where are all of her facts other than the few random ones thrown around? It is full of anecdotes and conjecture, just like an AW thread.

 

[A4sForever]

....I'd love to see some stats on rapes/alleged rapes at USNA vs. other universities...

It should never be an issue @ USNA, as the Boat School "stat" SHOULD be ZERO.

Officers and gentlemen (and ladies) .. pre-screened leaders ... examples to follow and all ...

 

[a_m]

It shouldn't be, but sadly, it is an issue that comes up.

 

[FSSF]

Having been close to those who have experienced first hand all things in this thread, (falsely accused, really stupid misunderstanding, actually raped,) I can tell you that there is no perfect way to handle these things. When you lump on the owned by tax payers and the high stakes of the game at the Academy, it is very easy to get very heated and have the conversation go dudes vs gals, women in the military, right vs. left, liberal vs. conservative, and personal. Hopefully USNA will get to the bottom of this quickly and fairly and all parties will receive what is deserved.Then we can argue the facts, not the conjecture and political ideology.

 

[FSSF]

It should never be an issue @ USNA, as the Boat School "stat" SHOULD be ZERO.

Officers and gentlemen (and ladies) .. pre-screened leaders ... examples to follow and all ...

The process can't fix everything. In some cases it can only hope to screen out the bad apples early and often. Case and point Zamora. Can you blame USNA for her. No. You're right though, officers, gentlemen and ladies. Thats why the kiddie porn guy is out and whomever is in the wrong with the sexual assault case will be as well.

 

[a_m]

Having been close to those who have experienced first hand all things in this thread, (falsely accused, really stupid misunderstanding, actually raped,) I can tell you that there is no perfect way to handle these things. When you lump on the owned by tax payers and the high stakes of the game at the Academy, it is very easy to get very heated and have the conversation go dudes vs gals, women in the military, right vs. left, liberal vs. conservative, and personal. Hopefully USNA will get to the bottom of this quickly and fairly and all parties will receive what is deserved.Then we can argue the facts, not the conjecture and political ideology.

The most well said opinion I've heard on this issue.

 

[wink]

I did look up both the Manhattan Institute and Heather MacDonald, wasn't greatly impressed with either one. Both are conservative and 'right-wing', and I would take anything written by them with a wary eye, as I would Mother Jones or some left-wing scribe. Plus, I am not sure I would trust an organization that was nothing more than a paid mouthpiece of the tobacco companies.

http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/orw87d00

http://legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/ntl01d00

As for the author, if she is such a sound researcher, where are all of her facts other than the few random ones thrown around? It is full of anecdotes and conjecture, just like an AW thread.

The Manhattan Institute is far more scholarly then Mother Jones. I never said one had to take what was produced by MI as gospel. I think one could argue very easily that the majority their product is more scholarly then Mother Jones. Where does it say that if you promote a conservative message you have to be untruthful? Do you think the only way someone can promote a conservative, or for that matter a liberal, point a view is to lie? Can the facts not stand up for themselves? My point was that one has to keep an open mind and consume material from points of view you don't have yourself. Keeping on open mind does not mean you only believe so called moderate voices. Everyone has an agenda, even people who purport to be moderates.

Heather MacDonald has written extensively on several subjects that I am sure would meet your high standards of journalism and scholarship. Because I am aware of them I trust even her more pedestrian work is worthy. The article in question is not a research paper. There are plenty of individuals quoted. Their quotes stand on their own and can be check for ones self. It isn't like there are unnamed sources. One can certainly draw another conclusion if one wants to.

Where the hell are you going with the whole tobacco funding thing anyway? The fact that MI might have gotten some funding from a tobacco company somehow disqualifies it from commenting on college rape? For that matter, those links provided are Greek to me. I don't see where it says how much money MI got and when or what portion of their budget it was. I don't even see MI mentioned. By your standard I shouldn't believe that organization anyway because it is obviously a tobacco hate group. Would it matter to you if tobacco money was used to research school funding in NYC or government contracting of highway projects? If you don't trust organizations that take tobacco grant money or do business with them then you will have a very long list. The tobacco boogie man is getting very frail and thin. I care how they use the money given to them. Sorry for the threadjack.

 

[Flash]

Heather MacDonald has written extensively on several subjects that I am sure would meet your high standards of journalism and scholarship. Because I am aware of them I trust even he more pedestrian work is worthy. The article in question is not a research paper. There are plenty of individuals quoted. Their quotes stand on their own and can be check for ones self. It isn't like there are unnamed sources. Once can certainly draw another conclusion if one wants to.

A central point of her attack on the 'campus rape myth', one that she continually hammered away at, was the 25% figure. But she was thin on her facts herself to retort it. She used it as an excuse to attack fringe organizations and color the whole issue. If she was a great researcher, where are her facts to refute the central argument, that 25% figure is BS? And I think the 25% figure is BS, but where is the beef?

Where the hell are you going with the whole tobacco funding thing anyway. The fact that MI might have gotten some funding from a tobacco company somehow disqualifies it from commenting on college rape? For that matter, those links provided are Greek to me. I don't see where it says how much money MI got and when or what portion of their budget it was. I don't even see MI mentioned. Would it matter to you if tobacco money was used to research school funding in NYC or government contracting of highway projects? If you don't trust organizations that take tobacco grant money or do business with them then you will have a very long list. The tobacco boogie man is getting very frail and thin. I care how they use the money given to them. Sorry for the threadjack.

The big difference is that the Manhattan Institute (mentioned in both documents) took the money to advocate for the tobacco industry, not for some greater good like health care or roads. It is merely an example of them whoring themselves out for money, much like some think tanks whore themselves out for George Soros, etc.

Those are links to source documents from the tobacco companies themselves (they are on the bottom of the page, PDF included), the group just posted them. If they are willing to sell their advocacy to one group, what about others?

 

[red_ryder]

So, are you saying they might have sold out to the rape companies? :icon_tong

 

[mmx1]

I stopped reading after "While women’s studies professors bang pots and blow whistles at antirape rallies..." I hope you don't expect me to take your link any more seriously than you would a link from MotherJones.

It's a yearly ritual at my alma mater.

 

[xj220]

It should never be an issue @ USNA, as the Boat School "stat" SHOULD be ZERO.

Officers and gentlemen (and ladies) .. pre-screened leaders ... examples to follow and all ...

True, but the same shouldn't happen in the fleet either and it does. As someone who's gone through the whole "experience," you'd be surprised at who they let in to that place. As for the child porn, obviously there's no box on the application that says "check here if you have child porn." There's somethings that cannot be screened, unfortunately. The best thing to do is not tolerate this stuff at all and separate anyone who commits such acts followed by severe punishment. It's a shame, the people they mentioned at the end of the article are all people I knew well (or thought I did) and had contact with on a regular basis. You just really can't see these things coming.

 

[Harrier Dude]

The process can't fix everything. In some cases it can only hope to screen out the bad apples early and often. Case and point Zamora. Can you blame USNA for her. No. You're right though, officers, gentlemen and ladies. Thats why the kiddie porn guy is out and whomever is in the wrong with the sexual assault case will be as well.

As long as it's the guy that's in the wrong. If it's the girl that's lying, we'll stop hearing about this until it's forgotten. Wait and see.....